Whiteface and Belleayre Mileage Limits

We seem to talk about the Gore mileage limit fairly often. But I don't nearly as much talk about the limits at Whiteface or Belleayre.  I'd like to hear your thoughts.

The current limit is 25 miles at both of both ski areas. Assume, for this discussion, that there must be a limit and you are lobbying for an increased number for the two hills.  What would your new limit recommendation be and how would you use it?  Pick any number 0 or above. Re Belle, I'll leave it to you if you want to address Highmount or not.

Increase all limits to 200 miles so they'll never hit them.  Or do away with them completely.

Mileage limits seem kinda weird to me. If they were imposed to limit expansion and scope of an area, I would think that total acreage would be a better measurement. Length of a trail doesn't take into account width of a trail which is what really makes a ski area stand out against the landscape.

Maybe length made more sense when those rules were first imposed and before the big resorts started going for the biggest widest trails possible and snowmaking started expanding trail size. I imagine MRG has a respectable length of trail mileage but it doesn't stand out in the distance like Sugarbush does.

I'm still baffled by the work around of calling liftlines glades and glades not being incorporated into the total number (a great work around but still baffling). On the flip side, NY has done better than NH with managing its publicly owned mountains given what has happened at Mittersill (Cannon) and Mount Sunapee (operated by CNL). It is nice to have some protections in place... it is easier to not clear cut than to rebuild a deforested area...

riverc0il wrote

I'm still baffled by the work around of calling liftlines glades and glades not being incorporated into the total number (a great work around but still baffling).

Even more baffling is the fact that the workaround is applied at Gore but not at Whiteface.

First I would like to know why is it set at 25 miles? And it's the same at each area? Well, I'm not an expert but I have done a little work with the forest service and trail planning and every area seems to have it's own limitations because of site specific biological sensitivities. I'm having a hard time trying to make sense of a predetermined number of 25 for all state run ski areas or why it's necessary. Why would Belleayre have the same limitations as WF? I'm guessing it was a number that an environmental group felt was appropriate but based on nothing and the state is trying to stay out of lawsuits?

So what am I saying? Well, to be honest the whole thing sounds like bs to me.

I'm not sure why the limits were picked Belle and Whiteface are 25 and that other mountain is 40.  I always speculated that the one number was higher because that site was so highly impacted with a pit large mine on the site.

I also speculate that the number was kind of arbitrary and considered to be a big number. When were the limits done 1970? (Honest question, not sure) How many ski areas had 25 or 40 miles then? My sense: the feeling was that limit was generous but there needed to be some limit. I also think the reason the limit was done in miles vs acreage is that no one imagined that trails would get so wide.  Back then trails looked more like well...trails.

I think the reason it has never changed is that it is written in the constitution so it's not easy and there has not been a lot of public pressure to do so. Really just in a few forums. Also think about it... 50 (?) years later the mountains are just now approaching the limit. Maybe it would have happened sooner with out those written limits.  

There are certanly plenty of laws and rules that were written decades ago that are still on the books that have outlived their useful life but live on because of inertia.

I'm still interested to know if and how people who know Whiteface and Belle would expand within the ski area boundaries.

Harvey wrote

I'm not sure why the limits were picked Belle and Whiteface are 25 and that other mountain is 40.  I always speculated that the one number was higher because that site was so highly impacted with a pit large mine on the site.

I also speculate that the number was kind of arbitrary and considered to be a big number. When were the limits done 1970? (Honest question, not sure) How many ski areas had 25 or 40 miles then? My sense: the feeling was that limit was generous but there needed to be some limit. I also think the reason the limit was done in miles vs acreage is that no one imagined that trails would get so wide.  Back then trails looked more like well...trails.

The mileage limit for Whiteface was established by an amendment to Article XIV of the New York State Constitution in 1941. The limits for Belleayre & Gore were established by an amendment to Article XIV in 1947.

At that time, I'd guess that the 25 mile & 40 mile limits were probably thought to be more than enough to sustain a ski area on those mountains.

For Whiteface I'd be adding the 3rd Lookout Mountain trail.  Also, Rand's Last Stand would be converted to a trail.  This would put more people on that chair, and allow better connection between Lookout and the summit.

Whiteface doesn't make snow on all the trails that have plumbing, so that would also be something to work on, like always making snow on Upper Cloudspin and Upper Northway.  

They could use some snowmaking capacity upgrades to allow everything to open by 12/26.  

I'd say to always try and open as soon as humanly possible with the Little Whiteface chair and gondola downloading.  Then expand using last year's dates as a sample.

11/8:
Lifts:  Little Whiteface with Gondola downloading.
Trails:  Excelsior and Upper Valley.

11/15:
New openings:  Essex, Approach, Mountain Run, Lower Northway.

11/22:
The following lifts open for the season:  Facelift, Mixing Bowl, Bear.
The following trails open:  Lower Valley, Fox, Bear, Boreen, terrain park.

11/28:
Trails:  Most of Bear Den Mountain, Parkway, Drapers Drop, Wilderness, Victoria.
Lifts:  Bunny Hutch Triple and Magic Carpet.

12/6:
Trails:  The rest of Bear Den Mountain, Upper Northway.

12/13:
Trails:  Paron's Run, The Follies, Skyward
Lifts:  Summit Quad, Freeway

12/20:
Trails:  Wilmington, Lookout Below, Hoyt's.
Lifts:  Lookout Triple

12/26 and after:
Trails:  Cloudspin, Lower Skyward, Niagara, 3rd Lookout trail.  (Everything not open yet).
Lifts:  Mountain Run

I'd also redo the LWF chair midstation ramp.  Currently it is open whenever the lift is.  I'd make it so it can raise and lower to be open or closed.  On weekdays the midstation ramp would be raised and the shack staffed so skiers could unload there.  The adjacent Mountain Run lift would be closed.  On weekends/holidays, the midstation ramp would be lowered, the shack would not be staffed, and the ramp closed.  The Mountain Run lift would run.  This would decrease stops/slows on busy days from removing one ramp from the equation.  Just have a sign at the bottom saying if the midstation was open or not.

Harvey wrote

I also speculate that the number was kind of arbitrary and considered to be a big number. When were the limits done 1970? (Honest question, not sure) How many ski areas had 25 or 40 miles then? My sense: the feeling was that limit was generous but there needed to be some limit. I also think the reason the limit was done in miles vs acreage is that no one imagined that trails would get so wide.  Back then trails looked more like well...trails.

Acreage would make a lot more sense to me.  Keeps the mountain from turning into a clear cut.  Forever wild, or not...

Glades I can see being a little less of an impact, but maybe the powers that be view in terms of time to grow back to a fully wild forest.  You can see that logging roads take a lot longer to look natural again than do areas that were logged but not clear cut.

Harvey wrote

  Back then trails looked more like well...trails.
 

Those were the days. Man_0_Man I hate change.

So you also liked not being able to ski until February because there wasn't any natural snow?

In 1987 there was a proposal to expand the ski trail width and total length of ski trails at the 3 NYS areas. It passed by a vote of 881,350 to 806,091. Despite no real opposition, over 800,000 people voted no. This is another reason why this type of electoral process is absurd.

The maximum width went to 200 feet (from a former max of 80 ft) with some other details. This was a result of the 1980 Olympics and the need for wider trails for racing and safety netting. They did make the trails wider for the Olympics, but recognizing the needs of snowmaking and safety had changed, this became a ballot issue.

The mileage increases went from 20 miles to 25 miles at WF and Belleayre and 30 to 40 miles at Gore.

The Vote

snoloco wrote

So you also liked not being able to ski until February because there wasn't any natural snow?

If that happens, fine. I've got other shit to do anyway.

x10003q wrote

The mileage increases went from 20 miles to 25 miles at WF and Belleayre and 30 to 40 miles at Gore.

What's weird is that they used almost the whole ten miles on Pipeline.

campgottagopee wrote

snoloco wrote

So you also liked not being able to ski until February because there wasn't any natural snow?

If that happens, fine. I've got other shit to do anyway.

In 1934 Stowe actually fielded the first ski patrol, beating Gore to the punch, because Gore didn't open until March.

campgottagopee wrote

snoloco wrote

So you also liked not being able to ski until February because there wasn't any natural snow?

If that happens, fine. I've got other shit to do anyway.

I guess you should give up skiing and start bowling instead then, because you're SOOOOOOO unhappy with the state of just about all ski areas that are currently operating.

snoloco wrote

campgottagopee wrote

snoloco wrote

So you also liked not being able to ski until February because there wasn't any natural snow?

If that happens, fine. I've got other shit to do anyway.

I guess you should give up skiing and start bowling instead then, because you're SOOOOOOO unhappy with the state of just about all ski areas that are currently operating.

Or you could just go backcountry skiing, because that relies on natural snow anyway...

That's what I do, and I've yet to touch a bowling ball

snoloco wrote

campgottagopee wrote

snoloco wrote

So you also liked not being able to ski until February because there wasn't any natural snow?

If that happens, fine. I've got other shit to do anyway.

I guess you should give up skiing and start bowling instead then, because you're SOOOOOOO unhappy with the state of just about all ski areas that are currently operating.

Wait a sec. Isn't it you demanding all these places add snowmaking, high speed bubble lifts and blah blah blah?

skimore wrote

snoloco wrote

campgottagopee wrote

snoloco wrote

So you also liked not being able to ski until February because there wasn't any natural snow?

If that happens, fine. I've got other shit to do anyway.

I guess you should give up skiing and start bowling instead then, because you're SOOOOOOO unhappy with the state of just about all ski areas that are currently operating.

Wait a sec. Isn't it you demanding all these places add snowmaking, high speed bubble lifts and blah blah blah?

Yes.  I'm saying that camp should give up skiing if he isn't cool with it.