Windham New Lift

Windham is putting in a 6 pack to replace the slow F triple that's next to the HSQ.  Will be a Mount Snow type setup where the quad stays and becomes the backup.  And with the new Hunter lift and the Belleayre gondola last year, that's 3 new lifts in two years.  

It will be a Doppelmayr lift.  Appears to have no bubble as I was hoping for, but the PR picture shows Euro style chairs and single position AG-108 grips.  Belleayre has the double position DT-108.

Didn't realize Hunter was getting a new lift.

They want to blast out some more intermediate trails on the north side of the mountain and build a new lift to serve them.  None of that pitch is even remotely close to blue so I have my doubts that it actually gets finished but they said that it's planned to be ready for next season.  At first they were saying the lift would be a HSQ but later I found out they changed it to a 6-pack.

Back to Windham my guess is they were in talks about getting the new lift as soon as they had the rope evac around Christmas.  Since then they've gotten bids and signed the contract with Doppelmayr.  Question is whether they actually got bids from both or just handed it to Doppelmayr.  Leitner Poma is really lacking on projects so my guess is they bid aggressively on anything else for this season, but Windham only has CTEC and Doppelmayr lifts at the moment.

The other thing is what's going to happen to the old F lift now that it's being pulled.  It's a 1983 VonRoll (but with entirely Hall designs).  My guess is they'll try and sell it to be used as a lift and if it doesn't sell then it will just be scrapped.  There's zero chance they keep it as they hardly ever run it nowadays and won't need it at all with a second detachable going to the summit.  I wonder who could be in the market for a used triple.  Maybe Laszlo could use it to replace his older Hall triple or do an expansion, or maybe ORDA could put it on the Dark Side at Gore.  Laz only has Hall lifts and ORDA loves used triple chairs.

North side of the mountain? Anything to the north would be on Rt. 23A. Do you mean the terrain across the valley from Hunter West?

I edited a bunch of stuff into my previous post.  No it's going to run from the west side work road to the top of Wayout.  Only about 3000 feet long so quite short for a detachable.

Another thing about Windham is the last lift project they did was 2006 where they put a high speed quad on East Peak and moved the 1987 CTEC triple over to Wonderama to replace the very old 1964 Carlevaro and Savio model that I think was the first triple in NY.  That lift was scrapped, but the CTEC chairs that were added at one point were reused on the D lift to replace the Hall style chairs.  That's why the chairs on that lift have super long hanger arms as all replacement chairs on C&S lifts did.  They were an improvement over the C&S and Hall chairs because they are so much wider at the seat and shoulder so it makes it much easier to get on especially with beginners.

Belleayre, Windham, and Hunter. You know what that means? Plattekill is next!

Here's a good view of Plattekill I discovered today. Shows the area I want to develop with another lift.    

You wanted a HSQ for there, but would a used triple be acceptable?  It would significantly reduce the cost and that could be the difference between getting it done and not getting it done.

A triple would probably be fine, but my main concern was the length. It's 4200' long which is a long ride for a fixed lift.

4000' is fine for a fixed grip. Both summit chairs at Berkshire East are 4000' line length in about 1100 vertical IIRC.  Ethan, what's the line length on the current Platty double?

Both Plattekill lifts are under 3000 feet.

4000 feet is ok for a fixed grip except for busy main lifts that need the extra capacity of a detachables.

At Windham, the F lift is about a mile long and simply awful as their clientele doesn't know how to get on or off without it stopping every other chair.  Takes 15-20 minutes to ride.

I already told Ethan, the only new lift I'd like to see at Platty would be a Poma lift.

There is nothing wrong with a long line on a fixed grip. End of story. Period. Just run it full speed and remind yourself the trail will be less crowded and you paid less then $70 for your ticket. For chissake. It's like you kids haven't even been listening

Not sure if you know what Windham's clientele is but it's basically families with young kids, ski school groups, and wealthy city folks.  And they charge over 80 dollars for a lift ticket and have one of the most expensive season passes around.  They have deep pockets and upgrading the main base to summit lift (which was needed for a long time) makes perfect sense.

For Ethan's Plattekill lift a fixed grip should be fine.  The same company that owns Windham also owns Round Top in PA so the F lift could also be relocated there.

I plan on doing a couple updates on construction throughout the off season although I won't do as many as I did at Belleayre since I'm not a passholder there. They also have a webcam on it so it will be quite easy to watch the progress.

snoloco wrote

Not sure if you know what Windham's clientele is but it's basically families with young kids, ski school groups, and wealthy city folks.  And they charge over 80 dollars for a lift ticket and have one of the most expensive season passes

For Ethan's Plattekill lift a fixed grip should be fine.  

Yeah, I know all about Windham. I was responding to Marc and Ethan and making a more general point, which you sort of confirmed. Windham runs detaches and charges a lot. Plattekill sticks with reliable, economical old fixed-grips and charges less.

Brownski wrote

There is nothing wrong with a long line on a fixed grip. End of story. Period. Just run it full speed and remind yourself the trail will be less crowded and you paid less then $70 for your ticket. For chissake. It's like you kids haven't even been listening

I actually agree. I think a fixed grip lift would be fine for the theoretical Platty expansion. There probably won't be a lot of trails over there, so high capacity is probably not necessary. It will basically be a longer version of the current Tripple pod.   I will have to be honest though, there's something magnificent about the initial acceleration, and the small adrenaline rush you get as the chair quickly accelerates out of the terminal on a detachable lift. The ADK II is probably the best example of this. It really legitimizes the ski resort IMO.

I know I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, just saying there's a place for both lifts.

To answer Marcski's question, the Platty Double is 2750' long. The new lift would be almost exactly 4000' long.

Brownski wrote

 Windham runs detaches and charges a lot. Plattekill sticks with reliable, economical old fixed-grips and charges less.

You're right about the lifts,  but I actually think the pricing between the 4 Catskill resorts is total bullshit. Part of this is politics because of Belleayre.

Full price day ticket at Plattekill is $65, meanwhile at Belleayre, a full price ticket is $68, only $3.00 more than Plattekill. and they have a ton of trails, a ton of snowmaking wall to wall, and a friggin gondola!  Shit, if I'm coming from downstate,  It'll cost me 3 bucks in gas just to drive the extra miles past Belleayre to Plattekill.

Meanwhile on the other side of the park, Hunter and Windham are charging somewhere in the ballpark of 80 bucks, and upwards. which I think is way to high, because I you can ski at Gore for that and actually have air to breathe.

The issue with Belleayre is that they are state subsidized, and that may be part of why they can keep their prices down, but I'm not convinced that's the only reason. Belleayre also offers frequent skier cards which can get you discounts even on holidays making their prices significantly less than Plattekill. Plattekill's "Value club card" does not offer as good of savings. So that being said, it makes Plattekill's prices seem high, and although I do think they are a little high, they are not out of sight.

The only way Plattekill can grow is to sell more tickets, not by charging more for tickets. And there needs to be room for those people to park.

I'll be honest, it was tough decision for me this year. I could have gotten a Ski3 pass for $20 less than a Plattekill pass this year. I went Plattekill out of loyalty, but for the average Joe who doesn't know the place Plattekill needs to do a better job of proving that their worth it.

I guess for now, charge as much money as you can, as long as there's still bread on the table. I get that too.

snoloco wrote

Not sure if you know what Windham's clientele is but it's basically families with young kids, ski school groups, and wealthy city folks.  And they charge over 80 dollars for a lift ticket and have one of the most expensive season passes around.  They have deep pockets and upgrading the main base to summit lift (which was needed for a long time) makes perfect sense.

For Ethan's Plattekill lift a fixed grip should be fine.  The same company that owns Windham also owns Round Top in PA so the F lift could also be relocated there.

I plan on doing a couple updates on construction throughout the off season although I won't do as many as I did at Belleayre since I'm not a passholder there. They also have a webcam on it so it will be quite easy to watch the progress.

Agree that Windham serves an upscale clientele that will appreciate a new lift.

But want to note that Snowtime Inc. sold Windham to local businessmen back in 2005.  Quite a bit of money has been invested in Windham by the current owners for upgrades as a 4-season resort in the last 10 years.  Snowtime chose to concentrate on their trio in PA that are popular with folks who live in the DC metro area: Whitetail, Liberty, and Roundtop.

http://www.saminfo.com/headline-news/6147-4665-758-windham-mountain-sold-to-local-investors

Ethan Snow wrote

The only way Plattekill can grow is to sell more tickets, not by charging more for tickets. And there needs to be room for those people to park.

I'll be honest, it was tough decision for me this year. I could have gotten a Ski3 pass for $20 less than a Plattekill pass this year. I went Plattekill out of loyalty, but for the average Joe who doesn't know the place Plattekill needs to do a better job of proving that their worth it.

I guess for now, charge as much money as you can, as long as there's still bread on the table. I get that too.

I have a pass to belle this year. I have considered doing platte but I like how belle blows tons of snow and is competitive with opening early in the year and staying open late in the year.  

But I wanted to chime in because Plattekill needs to advertise better if they actually do want to grow.  I can see wanting to stay core but if they really did want to grow, they need to attract people like you are saying.  I knew plattekill existed but I didn't realize how awesome it was until joining this website. The majority of people who travel for a day trip to the 'skills doesn't even look at plattekill as an option.   A few years ago and even this year, Belle is my way of getting away from the crowds.  Plattekill needs to get their name out.  Doesn't have to be advertising in NYC. Advertise on this website, target other groups who are obsessed with skiing etc.

On the flip side, Plattekill can occasionally "max out" their capacity as far as lodge  and parking capacity go. Often when there are cars parked down the road a good distance this can produce about a 5 minute lift line that extend as far back as to the lodge. Still the trails don't feel crowded. So operating like this is a good think to have happen with the current setup. Anything busier would be a total shitshow. My gues is if the pricing were lower, maybe Plattekill would be so busy they couldn't accommodate everyone on busy weekends. Problem is other weekends like last weekend can be a bit slow.

louie.mirags wrote

I can see wanting to stay core but if they really did want to grow, they need to attract people like you are saying.

Plattekill has less interest in being "core."  Survival is all about families.  Core is a bonus, not a strategy.

louie.mirags wrote

I knew plattekill existed but I didn't realize how awesome it was until joining this website.

This makes it all worthwhile louie. Thanks.