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hydrofracking yay or nay

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MC2 5678F589

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

PeeTex wrote

. If you moved ALL the people to the city they would starve with no food

Reductio ad absurdum from an absurd dumdum.

MC2 5678F589

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

In reply to this post by raisingarizona

raisingarizona wrote

campgottagopee wrote

City, dense housing, and public transportation is my definition of torture.

Couldn't do it

Yup. Kill me now.

Right. The skier's (/infrequent snowmobiler's) dilemma:

We all want to drive to ski areas in our big trucks & SUVs, keep our long commutes, live in 3,000 square foot houses in Forest fire areas, go skiing at places that use tons of energy & water to make snow... BUT we also want a nice environment and we don't want climate change. It's just untenable.

Listen, I agree with you guys: enormous corporations are responsible for most of the carbon pollution. But we can definitely do better with policy choices, too (denser ski towns with more low income housing and good public transportation, for instance). The sheer number of people isn't a problem if you make smart design choices and produce food & energy more efficiently (people have been warning about overpopulation for 100 years now, and it seems like we're doing okay. We're only a couple of energy storage/production breakthroughs away from cheap, clean energy all over the world)

raisingarizona

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

MC2 5678F589 wrote

raisingarizona wrote

campgottagopee wrote

City, dense housing, and public transportation is my definition of torture.

Couldn't do it

Yup. Kill me now.

Right. The skier's (/infrequent snowmobiler's) dilemma:

We all want to drive to ski areas in our big trucks & SUVs, keep our long commutes, live in 3,000 square foot houses in Forest fire areas, go skiing at places that use tons of energy & water to make snow... BUT we also want a nice environment and we don't want climate change. It's just untenable.

-I don’t want or do any of these things.

Listen, I agree with you guys: enormous corporations are responsible for most of the carbon pollution. But we can definitely do better with policy choices, too (denser ski towns with more low income housing and good public transportation, for instance). The sheer number of people isn't a problem if you make smart design choices and produce food & energy more efficiently (people have been warning about overpopulation for 100 years now, and it seems like we're doing okay. We're only a couple of energy storage/production breakthroughs away from cheap, clean energy all over the world)

-i don’t blame corporations, that’s way too easy and lazy and simple imo.

-ok then, go be the change. Move to the city, sell your car, quit skiing etc. until then, you are the problem. Don’t point your finger while whining about those big bad evil corporations, it makes you sound like a freaking baby that’s sitting on a pile of participation awards.

campgottagopee

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

raisingarizona wrote

-ok then, go be the change. Move to the city, sell your car, quit skiing etc. until then, you are the problem. Don’t point your finger while whining about those big bad evil corporations, it makes you sound like a freaking baby that’s sitting on a pile of participation awards.

Couldn't have said it better

campgottagopee

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

In reply to this post by MC2 5678F589

The primary reason I live where I do is for hunting. Depending on what stand I'm going to I walk or take my ranger. When I ride my snowmobile I don't have to drive my truck and trailer, I leave right from my house. When I ski I take my ranger or my sled to the tune of 1 mile.

You drive hours to go skiing.

MC2 5678F589

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

In reply to this post by raisingarizona

raisingarizona wrote

-i don’t blame corporations, that’s way too easy and lazy and simple imo.

-ok then, go be the change. Move to the city, sell your car, quit skiing etc. until then, you are the problem. Don’t point your finger while whining about those big bad evil corporations, it makes you sound like a freaking baby that’s sitting on a pile of participation awards.

A.) So, you don't blame the ones responsible? Weird:
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/09/revealed-20-firms-third-carbon-emissions

B.) I'm going to move to a ski town eventually, buy an energy efficient condo or solar powered house, sell my (fuel efficient) car, and live a much more carbon neutral life. But that's a thing that takes a while to build up to. Also, I never claimed to be a paragon of virtue... Not that you have to be:
https://www.fastcompany.com/90290795/focusing-on-how-individuals-can-stop-climate-change-is-very-convenient-for-corporations

C.) I thought your opinion was that we are fucked anyway? Why do you care what I do?

MC2 5678F589

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

In reply to this post by campgottagopee

campgottagopee wrote

The primary reason I live where I do is for hunting. Depending on what stand I'm going to I walk or take my ranger. When I ride my snowmobile I don't have to drive my truck and trailer, I leave right from my house. When I ski I take my ranger or my sled to the tune of 1 mile.

You drive hours to go skiing.

How long is your commute to work, camp? What Truck do you drive?

Again, I'm not calling for a change in individual choices (I don't really care). My thing is, insofar as we should regulate this by policy, we should have denser cities with more efficient housing & better public transportation. More small, compact upstate NY-type towns. Less sprawl like Texas, Vegas, & Virginia:

campgottagopee

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

8 miles

What I drive varies

You drive hours

witch hobble

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

In reply to this post by MC2 5678F589

Looks like a hellscape. I can’t imagine living in the middle of that.

I’ve been a townie in a couple compact, periphery of the mountains towns for the last 18+ years. First in NY, now in NH. I’m ready to move at least 10 minutes out of town.

When these towns were first built, you needed the connection to neighbors and community to keep you safe and informed on what was really a frontier. Now not so much.

New development in town that is compact and dense is intriguing, but I still don’t think it is what today’s market wants. When someone moves to the Adirondacks or the Lakes Region of NH, most are looking for their own piece, not shared space (well, park land and national forest land yes; actual backyard, no).

Harvey

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

Administrator

I don't have a formula to prove it, but I'm guessing the worst thing I do in my life is drive to ski. I'm betting that my portion of snowmaking, my woodstove and the rest of it have less impact. Oddly I moved to a bigger house, but I'm finding my energy costs less. State of the art furnace/ac, double pane windows and fiberglass insulation seem to be more than enough to compensate for a 2x house.

I hope to drive less overall when I retire too. I'll certainly drive less to ski. But that doesn't address the issue. We need a lower impact solution for working people.

Almost everybody wants kids, but nobody (or maybe, not everybody) wants high density.

The only way to fix it is to let the market reflect the true cost of everything. I don't see that happening.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

campgottagopee

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

Harvey wrote

State of the art furnace/ac, double pane windows and fiberglass insulation seem to be more than enough to compensate for a 2x house.

That's where I am right now, only in the reverse. I moved from a new, very efficient house that was easily twice the size of what I have now that cost me the same to heat. We don't need to deal with cooling, which is nice. For the 2 weeks a year I need AC (primarily for my old dogs while I'm at work) I have a portable AC unit that works fine for me.

As I said earlier I was looking into the Mitsubishi system. At first glance I truly thought that's the direction I was going to go because it offers heat/ac/dehumidify all in one package. After talking with someone who knows the business the money involved isn't worth it to me. I'm now looking into high efficient oil furnace. I could go to propane but my oil tank is already there so why mess with it??? If anyone has any suggestions please feel free to give advise. Wood pellets will continue to be my main source of heat but need a secondary source for when I'm out of town for more than a day.

PeeTex

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

In reply to this post by raisingarizona

raisingarizona wrote

-ok then, go be the change. Move to the city, sell your car, quit skiing etc. until then, you are the problem. Don’t point your finger while whining about those big bad evil corporations, it makes you sound like a freaking baby that’s sitting on a pile of participation awards.

Nice - you are so right.,

Don't ski the trees, ski the spaces between the trees.

PeeTex

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

In reply to this post by Harvey

Harvey wrote

The only way to fix it is to let the market reflect the true cost of everything. I don't see that happening.

And if that were to happen you would see "renewables" and EVs go away.

Don't ski the trees, ski the spaces between the trees.

PeeTex

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

In reply to this post by MC2 5678F589

MC2 5678F589 wrote

PeeTex wrote

. If you moved ALL the people to the city they would starve with no food

Reductio ad absurdum from an absurd dumdum.

Ah yes - the liberal response to losing an argument.

Don't ski the trees, ski the spaces between the trees.

MC2 5678F589

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

The guy that lost the argument is the guy that assumed (in his argument) that anyone wants to ban all living outside of cities.

Harvey

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

Administrator

In reply to this post by PeeTex

So you are saying to get alternatives viable we'd have to subsidize the future? I'm ok with that.

I think the cost of fossils would go up. Maybe the cost of chinese panels made irresponsibly could go up too.

The cost of cell phones would go way up. Who knows what kind of dividends that would pay.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

Harvey

Re: hydrofracking yay or nay

Administrator

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by PeeTex

Like I said earlier, you can make anything political if you want too. And while many decisions probably have political implications, if you were trying you could stay out of it. Everyone knows you are a bright guy.

Take a break. Maybe come back to the OT after you've posted some winter stoke.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

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