hydrofracking yay or nay

And why if you chose, 20 words or under to keep it short, just an answer, one post per person

I'm curious to see what skiers think

Me
nay
no real checks to ensure the safety on nature and our drinking water

Not now. Drilling companies won't even reveal what chemicals they use now. Speaks volumes.

Reseachers are working on " nontoxic " chemicals for fracking. If successful then ok.

I say yes.

Have a couple friends who frack...they make serious bank...they've been doing it long enough with no issues

Fracking would save SOOOOOOO many farms in our area......we need this kind of money around here

Men in denim built this country, men in suits have ruined it.

Snowballs wrote

Not now. Drilling companies won't even reveal what chemicals they use now. Speaks volumes.

Reseachers are working on " nontoxic " chemicals for fracking. If successful then ok.

http://fracfocus.org/chemical-use/what-chemicals-are-used

Fraking is like making sausage, it ain't pretty but you gladly eat the end product. I also worry about the ground water, at the rate things are going good water may be more valuable than gas.

Very tough to be brief about this.

The answer, as with most things is "it depends". PeeTex is totally correct about the value of water. Look at how bad things are out west, why would we want to pollute our only cheap resource HERE (East Coast, but specifically anywhere close to a NYC reservoir) to negate barely anything from our local costs.

When you pump hundreds of millions of gallons of toxic chemicals into the earth in hopes of pushing something out of the other end when you will never know how many cracks spiderweb and propagate underneath the ground, well, it just doesn't seem that smart.

  Our family has property in the Delaware river basin and the commission has stopped all drilling in their jurisdiction, while areas north, land owners have cashed in.  Taxes on our land is about $5000 grand each yr. Its getting harder to hold onto the old farm. Fracking surely would make this possible.

ml242 wrote

 When you pump hundreds of millions of gallons of toxic chemicals into the earth in hopes of pushing something out of the other end when you will never know how many cracks spiderweb and propagate underneath the ground, well, it just doesn't seem that smart.

....and probably no possible way to clean it up if needed. Water is way too valuable.

A study just released said fracking has been linked to causing small earthquakes. If so, that could distribute the toxics to where they cause great harm.

I understand people's temptation. My hometown in western PA has many people making A LOT of money off fracking.

As with all extremely complex issues ' there  simply is NO single clear cut BEST solution. Either choice will require  a leap of faith and no doubt will result in BOTH short term economic benefit while undoubtedly causing  the law of UNINTENDED consequences to be in play .

I certainly empathize with those in need of short term economic benefit given the depth of this recession , but frankly until i SEE more longitudinal data about effectiveness and safety of the process , i will be on the side of HUSBANDING  the LONG term benefit of preserving  a national  scarce resource such a clean ,abundant water .

I see fracking as just another opportunity to rape the earth, "because we can", for the sake of short-term economic benefit. The long-term cost to our kids and their kids and then their kids is the unknown that I fear that we're gambling with.

DrSkimeister wrote

I see fracking as just another opportunity to rape the earth, "because we can", for the sake of short-term economic benefit. The long-term cost to our kids and their kids and then their kids is the unknown that I fear that we're gambling with.

I agree with the good Doctor and his snow covered snout.  Until there is a more long term understanding of the effects of pumping the fluids (BTW, it's mostly water..like 99% and the rest is chemicals designed to help decrease the friction caused by the intense pressure involved) into the ground, I tend to say no.  

I know its hard to be brief, the idea was just to keep it clean... can be a real mud sling topic

I agree if its proven to be 100 percent safe then I'd be ok, but its not yet

DrSkimeister wrote

I see fracking as just another opportunity to rape the earth, "because we can", for the sake of short-term economic benefit. The long-term cost to our kids and their kids and then their kids is the unknown that I fear that we're gambling with.

I hear what you and Warp are saying, and part of me feels the same way. That said, is that reality?? I don't think so. You mention kids and their kids.......I'll use the farm we hunt on as an example.

We hunt a 400 acre farm, it's a amazing piece of property full of harwoods, ravines, high ridges, ponds, fields and streams...when I'm there it's heaven on earth for me. It's a second generation farm that I fear wont make it to the third due to taxes being 12k/year. The owner is 82yrs old, granted he's sears kenmore tuff, but still 82. None of his kids, right now, could afford to keep the place due to the taxes. Fracking would change that 100% and the farm would stay in the family for his kids, and their kids to enjoy for lifetimes........if not, we'll drive by what used to be such a beautiful farm and see nothing but logging roads, and tree tops for as far as the eye can see after a lumber company comes in a rapes it(there's some serious cash in hardwood on this farm).....that's reality, or at least it  is around here, so I'm not sure what is worse.

Again, I don't pretend to know about fracking, just what my 2 buddys share with me. They claim if done correctly the good out ways the bad. I feel we need forward thinking on this, the clock is ticking and I hope it works out. There are chances, sure, but what in this country isn't anymore.

Campy : compelling story , really is and i understand that dilemma on an INDIVIDUAL basis in terms of todays economy . My rationale is more on the macro or policy level as far as  fracking is concerned until we have serious longitudinal scientific compelling evidence that addresses the long term safety of the water table .

Could there be other sources of income for the farm , ie selective logging , syrup production , just read some stuff about BIRCH syrup which is the new GOLD for gourmets seeking an alternative to Maple Syrup . Apparently this new foodstuff is selling at a rate that is the equivalent of $300 a gallon    OMG if that is true with the NYC and Boston metro yuppie mkt  this could be a DECENT alt revenue stream . Is this a dairy farm ?

at any rate this whole issue is fraught with concerns most of which are legitimate on both sides , so it becomes AT The Policy level a case of the greatest good for the greatest number and right now THAT is  dicey

warp daddy wrote

Campy : compelling story , really is and i understand that dilemma on an INDIVIDUAL basis in terms of todays economy . My rationale is more on the macro or policy level as far as  fracking is concerned until we have serious longitudinal scientific compelling evidence that addresses the long term safety of the water table .
 

I get it. I'd like to think that with DEC policies fracking could be safe in NYS. We've all heard the horror stories of fracking, but I feel there are more successful stories out there. Success meaning excellent paying jobs, families keeping their farms that have been around for decades.

warp daddy wrote

 

Could there be other sources of income for the farm , ie selective logging , syrup production , just read some stuff about BIRCH syrup which is the new GOLD for gourmets seeking an alternative to Maple Syrup . Apparently this new foodstuff is selling at a rate that is the equivalent of $300 a gallon    OMG if that is true with the NYC and Boston metro yuppie mkt  this could be a DECENT alt revenue stream . Is this a dairy farm ?

 

This is a retired dairy farm. The man who owns it is 82 years old and is tough as nails. All of us have everything we can do to keep up with the little shit . There is what we call the "Sugarbush", 90 acres of PERFECT sugar maple trees on a big high ridge, modern day sugaring at it's finest......he used to sugar it, but at 82 he's lost interest. Logging is how he pays his taxes. He cuts, he skidds, and he sells, again all at 82, but that's how he can maximize his dollars and not have to call in a lumber company makes him feel good. When he's done logging the woods are undesturbed, most anyone would be hard pressed to see where they were cutting/logging. Bring in a lumber company and that's NOT what happens.....it's a virtual mess of tops, stumps, and mud not fit for man nor beast.

warp daddy wrote

 

at any rate this whole issue is fraught with concerns most of which are legitimate on both sides , so it becomes AT The Policy level a case of the greatest good for the greatest number and right now THAT is  dicey

BOOM

Nay.

I have a hard time believing anything the energy industry tells us. Honesty is sacrificed any time it conflicts with a corporation's bottom line. Clean potable water is and will be our most valuable natural resource. I don't believe the energy industry gives a damn about that, based on their refusal to acknowledge the problems with fracking and their empty assurances that it's safe.

No fracking..

We just don't understand enough about what people are putting unregulated into the earth.
I understand people want to make money... But not at the expense of the environment and peoples health.
 

Campy,
Trees are a renewable resource, I would be surprised if your farm had not been clear cut sometime in the last 200 years. Fuck up the ground water and your done, all you have left is an Unrepairable superfund site.

Fracking for energy is like building a nuclear power plant except you have orders of magnitude more opportunity for a screw up. But we all know how safe a nuke is, we were all told, just like the poor bastards living around Fukajima.

Frankly, I'd rather see a heck of a lot more nukes, no CO2 and much better regulated and the process is measurable.

I got an email from someone who assumed she knew my position on fracking because of some criticism I had of the US government on another (non-energy related) topic. Not sure how she knows what I think. I don't know what to think.

No question that we are all (some more than others) benefitting in the short term from fracking. Lower energy cost, less dependance on foreign energy, higher economic activity all around.

But is it "safe?"  How do you define safe? I have no idea. That really takes an expert - a scientist - without an ax to grind.  Actually by definition a scientist leaves his/her bias at the door.

Are stories of people lighting their well water on fire legit?  Can that be tied to fracking?

I do feel that someone who doesn't profit from fracking should be monitoring enviro safety.  This goes beyond fracking and into any energy endeavor.  You just can't expect people who earn their living from something to shut it down because it's unsafe.

Harvey wrote

 Are stories of people lighting their well water on fire legit?  Can that be tied to fracking?

That has happened. Saw it on a TV documentary. The gas well head was just outside a man's kitchen window, maybe 100 yards. The camera pulls back from the gas well and the man turns on his kitchen sink faucet. He holds a cigarette lighter to the water flow and the natural gas coming from it ignites.

Problem is, natural gas from the ground is odorless. As such it could go undetected and a cause a house fire/explosion.

I know people that don't have any fracking going on near their wells and they can light their water...They did it right in front of me, so I think that is a weak argument.  I am not opposed to fracking but would definitely want to know more if it was going on or near my property.  It would definitely be a tough decision