ACR Op-Ed Piece In The NYTimes

MC2 - The Wild Center is def not a rip off.  Check it out.  Pretty awesome, especially if you bring children.  Also the short film they show is very inspiring!!  

x10003q wrote

 
The problem with this development is that the NYS taxpayers plus local Tupper Lake tax holders are left holding the bag when the project fails - which it will. As I said - nobody in the private sector is foolish enough to loan money to the project. That is telling.

I wouldn't be so sure it will fail.

Living in Virgil NY, 4 years ago I thought the same about Greek Peak with their expansion....hotel, water park, adventure center and now convention center. I have no numbers, but I can tell you evey weekend the place is mobbed. I hope they make millions to keep my little hill up and running.

the 2500 was already known based on work completed on Mansfield.  

A quick summary is the Bicknell seems to do well when ski trails are kept to 80-100 foot widths and a transitional edge is maintained.  Meaning vegetation of varying heights buffers the clear cut trail to the uncut forest area.  The Bicknell is then able to feed in the open areas but can use the transitional edge for cover from predators.

The study also determined the number of birds breeding on WF after Lookout Pod went it increased slightly...  

I'll see if I can find a link to the report if anyone is interested...    

That is not true.   Pilot bonds are issued all the time and communities have no risk.  Sure they could if it is not drawn up properly but I dont think the people in tupper would let that happen.  That said if they can raise money from people willing to take a risk on the project I am all for it.  I think in No way should NYS or the residents of Franklin county  be on the hook if it fails.

I am interested in any kind of wildlife study, river, etc  study where tax payers fund.     I need to know that NEW info is being learned...and then I am ok with it.    


As someone noted earlier....the problem with the bird may be Haiti and the Dominican Republic...tiny little areas where this bird winters.     These two countries have way bigger worries (esp Haiti).     And while I wish they would protect the forrest,  I cannot ask or plead they do.   They  have to want to.      They are now emerging countries...when we were emerging, our forefathers (most) could care less.  Rape and pilage the land for its resources...thus the start of National and State parks.    


As for the APA or ACR--   Glad it went through, but the city/county/state elected officials better cross their t's and dot their i's.    I am all for responsible development within the rules.    But you better not leave the bill to other tax payers.    A lot of stories like this all over...especially Texas and Fla.    Officials you are so warned.  Voters, make sure you know who you are voting for.  


I:)skiing.

Ausable Skier:  You're right, I'm not losing any sleep over this bird.  But I have no problem with moving slow, and in some cases not at all, in order to protect habitat.  Especially when the trade off is a chair lift.  

One thing's for sure, you don't care about any of this stuff.  The tenor of your posts reveals that pretty clearly.  You started down this path by expressing disbelief that any deference in development/expansion decisions would be made for a bird.  You didn't care about specifics or what the concerns were - it was a just a bird and you couldn't stand the thought that they might delay building a ski lift to hoist your ass up a mountain on behalf of a bird.  Here's what you wrote:

Noah - an example of eco-nut groups slowing down development is right in front of you.  It took WF several extra years to complete the Lookout Mt addition because they were forced to complete a multi-year study on the Bricknells woodthrush also known as that Fricking Bird.  This study's findings forced WF to only work on trails and lifts after a certain date (August 1 i think i recall it was) because we wouldn't want to distrube the bird.  That drove the costs of the project up by several hundreds of thousands of $.  The Eco-nuts are thus the reason for Hoyt's not having snowmaking because the project came in over budget and there was not any money left for snowmaking pipe.  All becuase of a bird.

So please don't pretend now that your concerns were any more nuanced then what you posted when you brought this topic up initially (after oddly ranting about Barney Frank and Fannie Mae; Faux News much?).  You wouldn't have cared if that habitat was the last piece on Earth - It's a "Fricking Bird" and you'll just never understand why people would ever care about it one way or the other.    

Do you ever any other examples of the eco-nuts blocking "legit development" in the park?  After all, there must be many  such instances; surely your wrath didn't begin a few years ago with the "Fricking Bird" travesty.  You've been angry your whole life.  Please share- it'll feel good to get it off your chest.   And I need a good laugh.

Is the bird endangered - nope

is this a eagle - nope

its just a small bird that is somewhat picky about where it chooses to live.  There are 46 peaks in the adk's above 4000 feet.  If you add in peaks and sub peaks / ridges in this fricking birds preferred altitidue range there are hundreds if not thousands of suitable habitats for this crappy little bird all within short flying range.  If they can fly to Haiti for the winter they could surely fly over to Sentenial Mt a mile away.  Skiers have one small mountain on which to play on - the bird can go elsewhere.

That the tax payers of NYS had to pay $300k extra because of a non endangered non descript little bird and then not get what they were supposed have have paid for in no snow making on Hoyts - yeah I'm pissed off as heck about this bird

What this thread started with is there is a rich group of bleeding heart greens that pay lawyers to throw obsticles up in the face of any and all development in the Park

Want another example that drives costs up for everyone living in the park - the APA passed laws requiring extensive engineering studies for just about anything.  I needed to upgrade my septic system and had to pay a certified engineer over $5k to design it due to an APA mandate.  The contractor would have done exactly the same thing that this guy designed.  Yes it made me mad that tree and bird lovers that live in NYC buy influence and affect the lives and pocket books of those of us that really love nature enough to live in it and not in a cement city.

You are right I do feel better now that I have gotten that off my chest - if you actually live in the ADK Park you quickly learn that you and your local representative have little say over what goes on here.  This is what the the folks in Boston in 1775 felt before they threw the tea into the harbor - mad as hell and not going to take it any more.

   You may call me an eco _Philestine  or Neanderthal but frankly IMO  this  bird controversy is Much ado about nothing . Nature adapts

You spew about stuff you don't know anything about.  I'm glad you're angry.  

Admit it:  You don't think there should be an APA and you don't think there should be any specific regulations aimed at development within the Blue Line.  You think it should be left up entirely to local Town Boards.  Just say it, dude and let your hatred flow.

I have no idea whether it's much ado about nothing and I'm certainly not willing to just take your word for it.  Everyone here that agrees with you just seems to offer that opinion without any factual back-up for it.  They just "feel" it.

The Bald Eagle was having a tough time adapting to DDT in the 70's; we probably should have just given them a little more time to get used to it.  They'd probably be gargling with the stuff by now.

Noah John wrote

Admit it:  You don't think there should be an APA and you don't think there should be any specific regulations aimed at development within the Blue Line.  You think it should be left up entirely to local Town Boards.

WOW - actually letting the little people that live here decide what to do with their communities - what a great idea.  Sounds a lot like a democracy.  To bad it will never happen.

If the people that ACTUALLY Lived inside the blue line were allowed to vote to keep or eliminated the APA the APA would be eliminated in a landslide result.  I doubt that the APA would get 20% of the vote.

We citizens of the ADK are like subjects of a far away king that have no say about our land or communities.  When the APA was established the people within the blue line were never asked if they wanted this "protection".  It was bestowed upon us by the rich and powerful with names like Rockafeller.

To be fair comparing the little bird to our national bird is not fair.  A ski trail and DDT have no comparison.  I am in the camp that that stupig bird would have just flown across the street and set up camp.   I dont really care that it got slowed down becuase of a study though.  If the tree huggers want to do studies have at it... but lets keep a little commen sense in the studies as well.

The issue is a bit more complicated then you either care to admit or have the capacity to understand.  I don't care which - you're not worth talking to.

I live in the park.  I'm seriously considering buying a business in the park.  I support the APA.  The region's biggest asset is its (relatively) unspoiled beauty.  It's biggest threat is people like you.  That's why the APA was created - to avoid death by a thousand cuts.  But the fact that it causes your ilk to go into apoplectic fits is a nice bonus.  Is there a big ugly vein popping out of your forehead right now?  Good.

I am also intimately aware of how local Town Boards work and the sagacity, or lack thereof, of their deliberations and decisions.  I work hand-in-glove with local Town Boards and one in particular.  God didn't distribute brains and wisdom equally and protecting the public from stupid, short sighted people is a proper role for government.  

TJ - you know me.  I'm a pretty practical guy.  If somebody actually showed me authoritative data that this study was unnecessary (and it was known to be so at the time it was commissioned) then fine - point taken.  I don't support unnecessary, regulatory red-tape and bullshit.  But nobody has done that on this thread.  They just state it as a fact - some type of received wisdom like they're Moses coming down off the mountain clutching the Ten Commandments.  I'm simply unwilling to just take somebody's word for it.  Show me.

Whether you believe there is a need for the APA, and other similar entities, is ultimately going to be a matter of opinion.

I was born and raised in what was a quiet, suburban town about 25-30 miles Northwest of New York City. At that time, the area was mostly farmland, fruit orchards and forests. It was a place where you could walk down the main street in the village at night, doing a little window shopping, going to see a movie, or getting an ice cream. There were dozens of small lakes and ponds where you could go fishing and swimming in the Summer, and skating in the winter.

When I graduated college and got married, I remained in the same community. It had certainly been developed substantially over those 20-25 years, and there were some areas that had changed for the worse, but it was still a relatively suburban community overall. In the 20-25 years since then, it has completely changed and been over-developed beyond belief, largely due to corrupt politicians and a lack of "responsible stewardship". Zoning laws that used to require lot sizes for homes be a minium of 3/4 and 1 acre lots have been changed over time to 1/2, 1/3 and finally 1/4 acre lots. What were once nice, quiet residential neighborhoods have been transformed into tenement style buildings. The main streets of several of the villages which used to be made up of small shops and restaurants are now made up of burnt out and boarded up buildings. Almost all of the farms and orchards are gone, and have been replaced by strip malls, multi-million dollar homes and sprawling condominiums.

The only reason I still live here is because I started to raise my children here, they have made attachments here, and my wife and I had decided a number of years ago that we didn't want to uproot them. The day my son graduates high school, I will be out of there faster than ... well ... something through a goose.

The APA may be a complete pain in the ass, and may make things onerous for those who live in the Park, but by the same token, they are "protecting" the lifestyle that I think (opinion only) most people who live in the park want. It would be nice if they could somehow draw a distinction, and perhaps enforcement, between residents simply looking to improve their own homes or businesses and outside developers simply looking to make a buck in the Park, but that probably wouldn't stand up to legal challenges.

I love the Adirondacks, and while the APA may sometimes make it tough for those who love there, I'm glad there's someone out there, trying to maintain a balance between responsible development and madness. They may not always get it right, and I'm sure some with undue influence get away with things that others don't, but it's better than having completely unchecked development, for the sole purpose of people making money.

Face4Me wrote

...

Articulate, passionate.  And it also happens to (IMO) bring this whole thing full circle, at least somewhat relevant to the original ACR article.  That combined with that fact that I can't easily separate this into two threads... I'm leaving it as is, at least for now.

This is a battle that will never end.  But unlike the political and religious stuff I'd like to stay away from, this kind of topic is right at the core of what this forum is about.  

My two cents: regulation is what makes a society civilized. The challenge with any power structure is rooting out corruption.

Some really great input here.

Face4Me wrote

Whether you believe there is a need for the APA, and other similar entities, is ultimately going to be a matter of opinion.

I was born and raised in what was a quiet, suburban town about 25-30 miles Northwest of New York City. At that time, the area was mostly farmland, fruit orchards and forests. It was a place where you could walk down the main street in the village at night, doing a little window shopping, going to see a movie, or getting an ice cream. There were dozens of small lakes and ponds where you could go fishing and swimming in the Summer, and skating in the winter.

When I graduated college and got married, I remained in the same community. It had certainly been developed substantially over those 20-25 years, and there were some areas that had changed for the worse, but it was still a relatively suburban community overall. In the 20-25 years since then, it has completely changed and been over-developed beyond belief, largely due to corrupt politicians and a lack of "responsible stewardship". Zoning laws that used to require lot sizes for homes be a minium of 3/4 and 1 acre lots have been changed over time to 1/2, 1/3 and finally 1/4 acre lots. What were once nice, quiet residential neighborhoods have been transformed into tenement style buildings. The main streets of several of the villages which used to be made up of small shops and restaurants are now made up of burnt out and boarded up buildings. Almost all of the farms and orchards are gone, and have been replaced by strip malls, multi-million dollar homes and sprawling condominiums.

The only reason I still live here is because I started to raise my children here, they have made attachments here, and my wife and I had decided a number of years ago that we didn't want to uproot them. The day my son graduates high school, I will be out of there faster than ... well ... something through a goose.

The APA may be a complete pain in the ass, and may make things onerous for those who live in the Park, but by the same token, they are "protecting" the lifestyle that I think (opinion only) most people who live in the park want. It would be nice if they could somehow draw a distinction, and perhaps enforcement, between residents simply looking to improve their own homes or businesses and outside developers simply looking to make a buck in the Park, but that probably wouldn't stand up to legal challenges.

I love the Adirondacks, and while the APA may sometimes make it tough for those who love there, I'm glad there's someone out there, trying to maintain a balance between responsible development and madness. They may not always get it right, and I'm sure some with undue influence get away with things that others don't, but it's better than having completely unchecked development, for the sole purpose of people making money.

I was going to respond by saying that be careful what you wish for, you don't want the rest of the world turning out to be New Jersey, but, this articulated it better.

I too grew up in that world, and watched it get strip malled. Let's keep some of our national treasures somewhat pristine from the evil doers who would even dam the Grand Canyon and open up a MacDonalds in Yellowstone.

campgottagopee wrote

x10003q wrote

 
The problem with this development is that the NYS taxpayers plus local Tupper Lake tax holders are left holding the bag when the project fails - which it will. As I said - nobody in the private sector is foolish enough to loan money to the project. That is telling.

I wouldn't be so sure it will fail.

Living in Virgil NY, 4 years ago I thought the same about Greek Peak with their expansion....hotel, water park, adventure center and now convention center. I have no numbers, but I can tell you evey weekend the place is mobbed. I hope they make millions to keep my little hill up and running.

Camp - There are around 1 million people within 40 miles of Greek and another 660,000 in Wilkes-Barre Scranton metro (90 miles). That is a huge close market. The 2 closest large metro areas to Tupper Lake at around 3 hours are Ottawa (1.1million) and Montreal (3.8 million). Both these Canadian markets have not prevented Big Tupper from closing in the 1990s. The closest US metros are Syracuse (168 miles) and Albany (150 miles). In both cases Gore is closer and better skiing. Albany also has the huge choices provided by Vermont, also way closer.

 As we all know, Big Tupper is a medium size ski area that the developer has said he will not spend money on until after he sells some of the project. If zero money is spent on the ski area, how many potential buyers are going to take the chance that the mountain might remain a natural snow volunteer place or close up again? What if the developer sells off some of the real estate and goes bankrupt? Who will run the ski area (and the roads/sewage/etc)?  The lakes around the Village are quite nice, but there are tons of lakes nearer Ottawa and Montreal and Syracuse and Albany.
The draw is the ski area and Big Tupper is not much of a draw.

This why I think the project will fail. There is no market for the area.

I think Face4me's points are good and valid and I don't want this to turn into strip mall hell up here.  But there is a balance that the locals are not allowed to work out for themselves and Noah is right that I'm mad as heck about that.

if the APA went away there is still all that state land that would be maintained and protected.  The question is not what happens to the state land but with private land that the kings of the APA lord over as if it was their own.

Vermont and NH seem to be able to manage their mountains and wilderness without some fat cats in NYC and Albany calling the shots.  Are folks that live within the blue line not as intelligent as those in VT which have done this well.  They go thru Environmental regulatory processes over there that move much faster because even a state as liberal as VT understands that it needs tourism and ski areas to drive the economy in their mountains.  The differece is that VT is a small state so they understand the needs of the locals much better.  It the State of ADK became our 51st state with I90 as the southern boarder then we would have the same situations as VT and someone in power would acutally care about us poor bastards lucky enough to live up here.

ausable skier wrote

if the APA went away there is still all that state land that would be maintained and protected.  The question is not what happens to the state land but with private land that the kings of the APA lord over as if it was their own.

Through the 50s and 60s it was becoming increasingly apparent that what was occurring on the private land was changing the character of the park.  That's EXACTLY why the APA was created.  It was a recognition that the Park was unique and should be treated as such and land-use regulation should be largely applied region-wide.  A patch work approach wouldn't work if you wanted the term "Adirondack" to really mean anything.  Made sense then and it makes sense now.  That battle was fought 40 years ago and you lost.  Let it go.  Or not.  I don't really care because nobody's listening to you anyway.  The APA isn't going anywhere. You got kicked to the curb.  


You actually like Vermont and that contrived little fake wilderness they have going on over there?  That's hilarious.  Our view sheds, scenery and wild lands are far better and far wilder than Boston's Biggest Suburb- by at least an order of magnitude.  You climb to the top of one of their "mountains" and all you can see is development.  Keep Vermont in Vermont.  And Act 250 by the way supplants a great deal of local control too, which seems to be your biggest complaint, so I have no idea what you're even talking about.