ACR Op-Ed Piece In The NYTimes

The issue is complex and will be a stretch in terms of scale .

 FWIW ( PBH and no this IS OPINION ) I have doubts that it will  ever evolve at the scale/density currently being discussed and the zeal of local politicians will not offset the inherent risk to both taxpayers and the environment .  

Having skied BT a great medium sized venue  for many yrs ,the hill  itself  as others have mentioned is  limited .  The proximity to major markets that would generate  sustainable margin as  either a destination resort and/or second home community seems  questionable given other competition in the region  for that same dollar.

That said Tupper needs some form of   economic development and selfishly i'd like BT to be in that mix.

warp daddy wrote

That said Tupper needs some form of   economic development and selfishly i'd like BT to be in that mix.

You see, that's the problem. Even you think that the Tupper development is a bad idea, because there just isn't a market, but, in the end, it "needs some sort of economic development". Well, if there is no free market solution, then the only other way to "develop" is to spend public money, right? So, at this time in history, do you think it wise to funnel more tax dollars from whatever productive enterprises we have in the state to a place like Tupper, for, ahem, a ski and golf resort for the wealthy? That ain't going to happen. Well, if it does, that's one more nail in the coffin for NY state, as a few more million move away to a lower tax state with better services and NY becomes even more of a laughingstock in the business world for establishing a headquarters and facilities. I mean, man, Reno, Nevada sure looks attractive to me as a retiree, with no state tax and low taxes elsewhere. Not upstate NY.

Noah

the dictatorship was established 40 years ago so you say others have no right to try to turn this back into a democracy... really thats your arguement... really?

Your attitude is exactly what I started with at the begining of this whole topic about 9 pages worth ago.  Certain people that consider themselves to be the protectors the environment, the down trodden etc basically beleive that they know better than the rest of folks who are too stupid to make good decisions for themselves so the all knowing big government will make all the decisions for them.  That is soooo not the american way.  

Benny Profane wrote

I mean, man, Reno, Nevada sure looks attractive to me as a retiree, with no state tax and low taxes elsewhere. Not upstate NY.

Benny seems that Nevada is a perfect fit for you

I'm more the Wyoming low tax state kind of guy because they don't allow governement to interfer with peoples lives there

ausable skier wrote

Benny Profane wrote

I mean, man, Reno, Nevada sure looks attractive to me as a retiree, with no state tax and low taxes elsewhere. Not upstate NY.

Benny seems that Nevada is a perfect fit for you

I'm more the Wyoming low tax state kind of guy because they don't allow governement to interfer with peoples lives there

Jackson real estate is way too expensive. Amazing place, though. Beautiful.

But, you know, the reason Jackson RE is so expensive is because the government has not allowed sprawl right next to Teton and Yellowstone. Thank god.

No Benny that's NOT what i'm saying at all .

 IF Scaled to size that is market appropriate , I believe that there may be a market , albeit regional ( eg Potsdam <Canton ogdensburg , Massena malone Plattsburgh , Watertown and Ft Drum environs  Southern Ontario / Quebec) that might have interest in slopeside condos, IF priced and designed for that objective

Well, that is a far cry from the project as it is now proposed. Dude want's to build Aspen sized mansions.

Yes  Benny i KNOW that .

 Tom Lawson's ( one of the developers) sister lives 2 homes away from us and i've been telling her about the scale issue .

Hey, I'm with you. This guy is obviously a remnant of the RE craziness of the pre '05 bubble bust, and still thinks he can do the carpetbagger thing and profit from a local community's desperation. Sad to see, after all this time, that some think it will be successful. But, hey, I'm old enough to know that history repeats itself.

That and i believe that most of his development success has been in the Carribbean and the Bahamas. he was a North Country native but has been in the resort   R.E. DEV scene for some time

ausable skier wrote

Noah

the dictatorship was established 40 years ago so you say others have no right to try to turn this back into a democracy... really thats your arguement... really?

No, that's not my argument.  My argument is that you don't have a chance of getting rid of the APA, that political battle was waged years ago and it's over.  Period.  And you REALLY need to get off your high horse about what is and what isn't a democracy.  Quit with the platitudes.  You and yours lost a political dispute waged in a democratic society.  Sorry about that.  But don't lecture people about what is, and what's not, the "American way".  It's not necessarily a matter of people being "too stupid" (although that may be the case in some instances.)  It's about saying "look, the Adirondacks are a region and we need a region wide approach and not an ad hoc, patchwork approach."  It was a value jugment to be sure, specifically, "is this a region that we as New Yorkers want to protect and regulate as a whole or are we content to simply let different localities regulate as they see fit?"  That question was posed and that question was answered.  Forty years ago.  All legal challenges to that decision have been exhausted.  I'm sorry you lost but that doesn't mean it was "undemocratic".  

Did Linger Longer come back as Noah John?

Goreskimom wrote

Did Linger Longer come back as Noah John?

"I knew lingerlonger and Mr. John is no lingerlonger."

In truth I never knew Mr. Lingerlonger. But from what I've seen, Mr. John is a thinking man.  He's articulate, if a bit rough in his delivery. In my years, trolls rarely express a thoughtful point of view.

Thacheronix wrote

Goreskimom wrote

Did Linger Longer come back as Noah John?

In truth I never knew Mr. Lingerlonger. But from what I've seen, Mr. John is a thinking man.  He's articulate, if a bit rough in his delivery. In my years, trolls rarely express a thoughtful point of view.

I agree. This is a spirited debate. IMO, Mr. John is ahead on points, so I wish he would avoid name calling ("nut job").
If he wants to label his opponent, he can call him an irredentist (quick, run to your dictionaries)

Yeah, I thought about removing the "nut job" comment because I honestly don't think it applies to AS - he's just passionate.  But his comment that the APA is a dictatorship and all the rest of that type of rhetoric is pretty antagonistic.  Afterall, it's not a stretch to go from "the APA is a dictatorship" to "anyone who supports the APA is a fascist".  That said, I apologize for  the comment (and I have removed it).  

I just wish AS type guys would quit throwing bombs (and temper tantrums) and join the adult conversation because their voices are needed.  And there seems to be no appreciation on their part for the fact that the APA has truly evolved over the last decade or so and is not nearly  as tone deaf as it once seemed when it came to the concerns of Adirondack localities, business folk and residents.  The fact that this project was approved is proof of that evolution in my opinion.  This decision upset a lot of Green groups- the APA's natural political constituency.  I think that took guts.  In my opinion, AS and his compatriots should put down their "guns", stop fighting a war that ended decades ago, and join the process.  They ARE being listened to when they stop screaming and yelling.  But a conversation is a two way street and they have to at least consider what the other side is saying.  And when they lose a political battle they have to pick themselves up, dust themselves off and carry on.  Like the rest of us do.

Excellent Post NJ - i agree your point that the APA has modified its approach over time and certainly stuck its neck out on this latest episode.

i guess anyone who doesn't believe there should be regional reg agencies has never been down here in our poconos

That's funny you should say that because that was exactly one of the points I meant to make to AS and then forgot.  I believe that there was a fear of the "Poconozation" of the ADKs that fueled the appetite for the creation of the APA.  The Poconos are kind of a cliché' and/or a joke now.  Nobody wants to retire in the Poconos.  No one dreams of relocating to the Poconos.  The ADKs are respected nationwide as a "wilderness preserved" and the last great remaining piece of what used to be called The Great North Woods.  The Poconos are a punch line for late night comedians.

x10003q wrote

campgottagopee wrote

x10003q wrote

 
The problem with this development is that the NYS taxpayers plus local Tupper Lake tax holders are left holding the bag when the project fails - which it will. As I said - nobody in the private sector is foolish enough to loan money to the project. That is telling.

I wouldn't be so sure it will fail.

Living in Virgil NY, 4 years ago I thought the same about Greek Peak with their expansion....hotel, water park, adventure center and now convention center. I have no numbers, but I can tell you evey weekend the place is mobbed. I hope they make millions to keep my little hill up and running.

Camp - There are around 1 million people within 40 miles of Greek and another 660,000 in Wilkes-Barre Scranton metro (90 miles). That is a huge close market. The 2 closest large metro areas to Tupper Lake at around 3 hours are Ottawa (1.1million) and Montreal (3.8 million). Both these Canadian markets have not prevented Big Tupper from closing in the 1990s. The closest US metros are Syracuse (168 miles) and Albany (150 miles). In both cases Gore is closer and better skiing. Albany also has the huge choices provided by Vermont, also way closer.

 As we all know, Big Tupper is a medium size ski area that the developer has said he will not spend money on until after he sells some of the project. If zero money is spent on the ski area, how many potential buyers are going to take the chance that the mountain might remain a natural snow volunteer place or close up again? What if the developer sells off some of the real estate and goes bankrupt? Who will run the ski area (and the roads/sewage/etc)?  The lakes around the Village are quite nice, but there are tons of lakes nearer Ottawa and Montreal and Syracuse and Albany.
The draw is the ski area and Big Tupper is not much of a draw.

This why I think the project will fail. There is no market for the area.

I just got back from a conference that was being help at Hope Lake Lodge....25% of the people flew in the night be4, another 40% had a drive of AT LEAST 4 hrs, then the rest were under a 4 hr drive. My point, I've seen the  "build it and they will come" first hand. I wasn't for it, I thought it would fail, but it hasn't.

The people in the 40 mile radius you speak of aren't GP's target audience....you don't see a lot of camo running around the hotel ...start selling beer for 6 bucks a bottle, rooms at 250/night, etc, etc, and watch we "locals" run for dollar can night.

Has any of the Hope Lake revenue been spent to modernize infrastructure on the ski hill or do you still have to wear a special GP coat because of the grease dripping from the lifts?