Adv/Expert (Slides) Litmus Test?

Turn in another discussion related to ability level and certain terrain begs the question.......What makes a skier 'more than an intermediate'?  

Coach suggested that a litmus test for expert terrain in the Slides would be a person's ability to comfortably ski Empire, and tighter lines in Cloudsplitter and Sugar Valley Glades.  I'd agree with that.  I'd also add Lookout Below to that, for the combination of steeps and funky terrain.  I suppose I'd also like to see a skier tackle Blazers from the men's tee on the left.  While short, it tests one's ability to commit to the jump turn.

Of course, one can ask what constitutes 'comfortably skiing' that terrain?  While someone has to do more than simply go in the top and come out alive at the bottom....does one have to rip it up and stomp their line top to bottom to get cred?

Curious on opinions.  Not related to myself, but more to people like my 15 year old daughter and others like her.  Sure, she has tackled all those litmus test trails above, except that she's only used the ladies tee on Blazers.  Her favorite trails are Empire and Cloudsplitter.  Yes, she skied Slide 4 last year.  She still does, however, pick her way down some of those trails......so what is she (and many others like her), really, in the context of who "should be" in something like the Slides?

Funny thing is, while I'd take my daughter anywhere on Whiteface, I don't consider her an expert by any means.  She still has things to learn and improve on....yet she has the toolset to do more than survive hairy terrain, even if she isn't "stomping it". Route finding, side slipping, kick turns....these are also essential skills in something like the Slides.

Obvious a great variety of people are going to be in the Slides on a Gold day.  I've seen kids probably no older than 10, and many with skills below my daughter's level.  On a good day many can navigate the Slides, but does that mean they should?

Personally, if an Expert is a 10 level skier (on a scale of 1 to 10)....I don't think the Slides require a true expert on a Gold day.  All bets are off on a Silver day.  But for the developing advanced skier with the appropriate tool set, I think the Slides can provide a great learning/developmental experience.  Of course everyone has their own opinion on that.....so what's yours?

First of all, Jump turns are cop outs with modern equipment, and Blazer's can be skied more smoothly by keeping your feet on the ground. Look at the difference between old ski movies (tons of jump turn) and new ski movies (few, if any, jump turns).

Second of all, people can ski whatever they feel comfortable skiing. I'd prefer it if certain skiers were not on certain trails (and sometimes I let them know about it), but we all struggled at one point, we all will again, so I see no reason to have "tests" at the top of every trail, regardless of the difficulty. Obviously, there should be warning signs (like that one on top of Rumor), but there shouldn't be a patroller on top judging people's skate technique before they drop in.

The slides are a different animal, just because it might be a tremendous pain in the ass to get somebody out of there who had gotten in way over his head. I support the Silver/Gold rating system and the patroller at the top and the sidestep check as methods for keeping less skilled skiers out. But, recognize that people might object to this, and get pissed because of it. You'd probably be upset if a patroller stopped your daughter on her way in because her sidestepping technique wasn't good enough and you'd respond with "but she skied it before!", and then you'd get into an argument on current conditions being different blah blah blah.

If I had my way, nobody would ever "pick their way down" anything. You're not really learning when you're shitting your pants with terror. It's better to go slightly above your ability level and work your way up. I've done this kind of gradual improvement with mountain biking. Have I gone on a couple of trails above my ability level by accident? Sure. And I've gone on some difficult rated mtb trails that were anything but. But if you keep it on trails that you feel comfortable 80% of the time, you're in the learning zone and not the "OMG I'm going to die" zone. There are studies on this, but I'm too lazy to look for them.

My two cents:

http://nyskiblog.com/what-is-an-expert-skier/

...or maybe two dollars.

MC- If one equated "picking your way down" with being in "shitting your pants terror in the OMG I'm going to die zone", I suppose I agree.  Of course, many people might be inclined to take the first run or two down a trail they are challenging themselves on a little more cautiously (i.e. pick their way down) than they do on subsequent trips.  Also, before you jump on it, approaching a trail cautiously (stop, pick a line, skis 3 or 4 turns, stop, pick/adjust your line) isn't the same as skiing cautiously (read: tentatively).  As you point out, to get better one does have to challenge themselves.  I'd rather someone like my daughter take it on the slower side and pick progressively more difficult lines in the Cloudsplitter Glades than to huck the first 10 ft drop through a tight tree slot that she comes across.

You aren't honestly saying that a jump turn doesn't need to be part of the expert arsenal these days, are you?  

As for Blazer's, one can certainly keep skis to snow top to bottom, but if someone wants to stay tight skiers left and launch the big rock over the scrub brush, carving ain't happening for the first few turns....

Harvey, I like it....particularly the how you ski, not what you ski part.  Thanks.

in order to stomp a true expert line down the slides you must be able to hop turn. this is a key component of being a true expert skier. 95% of the skiers can not link 10 to 12 hop turns together. are there situations that you have to do that many in a row? doubtful but a truely good expert skier can because the center of mass is on the balls of their feet and this allows them to hop without losing their center of gravity. most people hop then land on their tails and are out of position to carry on the sequence so they are done after 3. try it. Someone that can hop turn well can ski anything because their center never leaves the proper position.

Close off the entrance and make them push through the krummholz the way it's supposed to be done

Hop turns are a grossly inefficient way to get down stuff that should be easily skied normally.

Nobody said it's not a good skill to have or that the only choices are either hop or carve. Read what I wrote.

And this is completely false:

freshyslayer wrote

in order to stomp a true expert line down the slides you must be able to hop turn.

You do not need a hop turn to rip almost every line in the slides. (A hop turn here is described as basically a 180 degree edge transfer from stationary position to stationary position, entirely in the air). You can use air carves, leapers, airs to same edge, airs to different edge, etc., but there really isn't a reason to be stopped completely in one direction, and then make a gross hopping movement to turn your skis to the other direction. We're talking about relatively open slides, here (4 obviously tightens up, but you still don't NEED hop turns) . We're not talking about Schmidiots:



 Give your legs a break.

It's how you ski it that would define an expert.  I'm an expert but would not rate myself a 10 anymore as there are much better skiers out there and I'm a little more cautious now that I'm older.  

If you are stopping every other turn or bump on a steep and narrow trail, chute or glade I'd argue that you are not really skiing it as much as just sliding down it.  This can be even more pronounced with boarders.  I watched some kids kill the snow in empire Sunday just side slipping the whole thing.  How is that fun?  What did they learn or improve from the experience?  Not much.  In that case the coach in me would say go find something you can actually ski or board so you can get better while preserving the snow for others.

To own as a 9 or 10 expert you need to ski it in balance and control with the ability to properly apply different skill blends as conditions and tactics warrant.  A 10 would ski it faster and take a more difficult line than a 9.

I agree with Matt jump turns are now something you only do in a recovery.  They are a way that you see advanced 7 or 8s skiers get thru tight spots.  They are very inefficient which is why experts don't use them much anymore

Regarding the jump turn, it's a turn every expert has to have in their arsenal, IMHO.  It's not going to be used a lot, and should never be a primary way of getting down a trail, but in spots it's the only way, unless you want to huck 12 feet to a sketchy landing with no runout.  Maybe we have a terminology issue as well.  My jump turn might very well be Matt's air carve or something else.  I'm talking about a launch from a stationary/semi-stationary position with a midair change in direction, followed by another similar turn on landing if necessary....but could transition into a carved turn after landing if the slope allows.



Maybe I'm a hack, but use of a jump turn is the only way I could figure to ski this.  It's a place in an Adk resort that guys have probably been.  Think Kate Upton from above the headwall.  All told a 10 plus (my brother is 6') foot drop, with a small ice/snow ledge 3 or 4 feet down.  No room skiers right as you hit bottom to do anything but an immediate change of direction.  A slide onto the ledge, launch to bottom, followed by a jump turn left on landing.  How else you gonna do that?  I can post the pick from above if you like.  Sometimes it's a necessary tool, and if the skill isn't taught/acquired, any advanced/expert skier will eventually find themselves in a bit of trouble somewhere.  Next you guys are going to say the kick turn is useless or unnecessary!

My point about Blazer's wasn't that it was the only way to ski the trail, but that skiers left is a good place to practice the skill.

There is a difference between an extreme skier and an expert skier.

I would not worry about a label but rather I would ask yourself whether or not you can stay in control and safely and enjoyably make it down the terrain.

Remember the old saying about experts - an ex is a has been and a spert is a drip under pressure.

That was my brother's solution....but his legs were shot by then!

I agree jump turns are a useful skill I just don't use them much anymore.  If i do use them Its either an oh crap place like in your photo or occasionally Im not skiing well and throw some in and them scold myself for not making better turns

When I took the level 3 skiing exam we were tested on them and had to do them for 500 vert both with retraction and extension

Coach Z wrote

I agree with Matt jump turns are now something you only do in a recovery.  

Try skiing this crap without utilizing a jump turn

None of the pics in this thread would have required a jump turn, including that death crust above.

Are we talking about the same thing here? "Jump turn" doesn't mean any turn where you leave the ground and re-angle your skis. It's a specific move where your skis are perpendicular to the fall line, you leap up, and turn your skis so that they land perpendicular to the fall line in the opposite direction.

You guys need to take a lesson.

I have to hop turn when things get tight, especially in 4.
I think its a ski instructor thing to pick everything apart and not just ski.
I also think woman tend to underestimate their athletic ability and men tend to overestimate theirs. I'm the same way...just sayin.

I just considered it the same when we you have jump and bash through a 1/4" crust

Ok, terminology lesson then.....eduMaCate me!  See photo below of the same drop from above.  Turn to left at bottom is much tighter than it appears in the pic.  How would you tackle that without some kind of mid-air change of direction?  What do you call it when you drop to the ledge 3 feet down/left with your skis pretty much across the fall line facing right, you launch (jump) into the air and make a mid air change of direction (turn) as gravity takes you down the fall line, and you land at the bottom with your skis pretty much across the fall line in the opposite direction?  I jump, and I turn....and call it a jump turn.  Same question if you are are on a 45 degree pitch say 8' wide, you throw you skis across the fall line, launch and make a mid air change of direction, landing downslope with you skis across the fall line in the opposite direction...what do you call that?

Are you saying a jump turn is just a way to turn you skis in the opposite direction in a stationary position?  That would be wasted effort when a kick turn is the obvious solution.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

I have to hop turn when things get tight, especially in 4.
I think its a ski instructor thing to pick everything apart and not just ski.
I also think woman tend to underestimate their athletic ability and men tend to overestimate theirs. I'm the same way...just sayin.

Amen.

luv me some zipper teles down rumor headwall
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