Belleayre Conditions

Ever since Bruce Transue (previously from Hunter) took over last year they’ve been grooming most of the bumps. Last year there were only two bump runs some of the time, and they groomed the really nice mid down Onteora bumps always.

This year the rumor is no bumps at all, and so far that has been the case. Granted the snow hasn’t been the best but in previous years trails like Winnisook, Onteora, and Seneca which are all currently open all had bumps on them all of the time. When they first opened them they would dust them with gun powder and let them bump up nicely. There have been bumps forming on different trails at times and everyone from guests to ski patrol to instructors has plead to keep them and Bruce’s reply last week regarding the bumps that formed on Wanatuska was “fuck those people” groom it.

A number of us are very upset about this and considering not renewing our passes as the mountain skis way different now. We wrote letters to ORDA and the governors office about it last week. My buddy started a petition regarding this yesterday, please consider signing it: https://www.change.org/p/mike-pratt-president-ceo-orda-restore-belleayre-s-diversity-of-terrain-to-suit-all-ability-levels.

Even though I've never been there I am technically a season pass holder so I signed the petition for you. Bumps would give me a nice reason to go

Were they seeded bumps or just left ungroomed? Were having a similar situation down  here at blue mt but it was because the guy that ran the groomer and had them down to a science left. His replacement tried but went a little overboard, it doesn't seem like they can or want to do them right... and as you point out the  snow this year isn't helping matters

IMO, bumps and trees are important, to broaden the appeal of any mountain.

I signed it.

I signed it, too. My kids and I have season passes, and they're at an age when they would really enjoy skiing bumps. I can't really fault Belleayre for no bumps so far this season, but if they continue to groom everything to death when the snow is more bountiful, that's going to be very disappointing.

I approve this message.

Bandit wrote

Ever since Bruce Transue (previously from Hunter) took over last year they’ve been grooming most of the bumps. Last year there were only two bump runs some of the time, and they groomed the really nice mid down Onteora bumps always.

This year the rumor is no bumps at all, and so far that has been the case. Granted the snow hasn’t been the best but in previous years trails like Winnisook, Onteora, and Seneca which are all currently open all had bumps on them all of the time. When they first opened them they would dust them with gun powder and let them bump up nicely. There have been bumps forming on different trails at times and everyone from guests to ski patrol to instructors has plead to keep them and Bruce’s reply last week regarding the bumps that formed on Wanatuska was “fuck those people” groom it.

A number of us are very upset about this and considering not renewing our passes as the mountain skis way different now. We wrote letters to ORDA and the governors office about it last week. My buddy started a petition regarding this yesterday, please consider signing it: https://www.change.org/p/mike-pratt-president-ceo-orda-restore-belleayre-s-diversity-of-terrain-to-suit-all-ability-levels.

Signed and posted to another ski forum with folks who ski the Catskills.

Haven't skied Belleayre much but the variety of terrain is what I found fun.  Seemed far more interesting than Windham looked from the base.  I liked the vibe better than Hunter.

Completely agree.  

Mike Pratt, President/CEO
New York State Olympic Regional Development Authority
Olympic Center
2634 Main St.
Lake Placid, NY 12946

Dear Mr. Pratt,

I’m writing this to share my concerns as a season pass holder to Belleayre for almost 20 years as
well as a SKI3 pass holder since the ORDA acquisition of Belleayre. Throughout the years of DEC
management and the first few after ORDA took the reins, Belleayre has always had a variety of
terrain to suit all ability levels: beginners, intermediates, and experts alike. The trail designation of
double diamond was always reserved for trails that had moguls on them, and typically Belleayre
had very good moguls.

In the last one and a half ski seasons since Bruce Transue was hired as the General Manager, it
appears that his plan is to eliminate all moguls at Belleayre. Last year, we filled out the mountain
feedback forms and also scheduled a personal meeting with him on 1/18/19 to discuss this issue (as
well as many others) and at that time he said there would be “some bumps.” “Some bumps” ended
up being only two upper trails with moguls on them for part of the year, and no intermediate bumps
like there used to be on lower Onteora which is a great trail for mogul skill development.
So far this season, every trail on the mountain has been groomed completely flat. I understand that
at times conditions have not been favorable for snowmaking; however Hunter is nearby and their
bump trails have bumps. On Sunday 1/5/20, there was nice fresh snow gun powder on Wanatuska
and moguls started to form for the first time this season. Ski school told the GM about rave reviews
from students, ski patrol relayed how good it was, and skiers themselves told guest services that the
bumps were great and they should stay. Bruce ignored all of the positive input and decided that the
moguls would be groomed that night.

There are advantages to moguls other than just enjoyment for advanced skiers as well. Ski patrol
has been asking for moguls back from a safety stand point. The most common cause of ski related
death is from a high speed collision with a fixed object on an intermediate trail. Moguls naturally
slow skiers down and are needed in locations such as the bottom of Winnisook into Onondaga,
upper Yahoo into the mid station lift unload area, lower Wanatuska into the Overlook lodge slow
zone, and the Canyon into the Superchief loading area. Furthermore, I have seen countless
workshop groups of people of all ages and abilities learning and having fun skiing moguls at
Belleayre since they provide variety. Belleayre has plenty of terrain to be able to provide skiers with
both a groomed and a non-groomed experience. In the past, the upper mountain trails Winnisook,
Tongora, Belleayre run (half), Onteora, Yahoo, and Seneca were all snowmaking trails that were
allowed to bump up, in addition to lower Onteora, Wanatuska, and the Canyon.

In personally speaking to many fellow pass holders as well as mountain employees, the sentiment
that Bruce ignores all input from anyone and does what he wants to do is a common theme. It’s “his
way or the highway” as the saying goes. He is sometimes downright rude about it both to guests and
employees. I have been appalled on multiple occasions at the way that he treats long time
employees in public in front of guests. I have seen him yell at employees in more than one instance.
As a result, morale on the mountain is the lowest I’ve ever seen it. 

What everyone would like to know is if these decisions are coming from ORDA or being made by
Bruce himself. That information would clear up a lot of frustration from both guests and employees
alike. If these changes are the direction that ORDA wants the mountain to go in, a statement to
guests and employees alike would be helpful. Right now, this is causing a lot of conflict at the
mountain and a statement from ORDA would be paramount in resolving this issue. This would give
people the proper information to make the best choice for the ski experience they are looking for. If
this is all coming from Bruce than ORDA needs to step in and correct his blatant ignorance of staff
and skier input. As the mountain skis drastically different than it used to, I believe these changes
will lead to less skier visits and as a result, lower revenue.

My wife and I are devoted skiers; we ski an average of 50 to 60 days per season and we spend a lot
of money to do so both through lift tickets and food and beverage purchases. Part of the allure of
Belleayre for us has always been the great variety of terrain offered: from groomers to bump runs to
glades. In its present completely groomed state, the mountain is getting quite boring to ski. This ski
season we have SKI3 as well as IKON passes. As you are well aware, the competing pass products
from Vail and Alterra offer skiers many options for a reasonable price. I feel as though the many
loyal season pass holders who have expressed displeasure with the current operations are being
ignored to try to create an experience for people that have never been to the mountain. If this
continues, sadly, we will have to contemplate choosing a new home mountain for next season after
learning to ski at Belleayre in 2001 and being pass holders since then. I personally do not want it to
come to that as I love Belleayre and the Belleayre family, but I don’t like what it is turning into. We
have a group of longtime friends that are in the same position, so please provide us with information
on what direction Belleayre is going to go for next season so that we can make an informed decision
in regards to pass purchases. I would be happy to provide more input regarding Belleayre at any
time. I can be reached at (XXX) XXX-XXXX.

Sincerely,

{Name Withheld}
CC: Vero Piacentini
ORDA Board of Directors
John Parete
Governor Cuomo
Coalition to Save Belleayre

The ski runs at Bell all ski nearly exactly the same making the need to groom every one  of them even less imho. Jus sayin.....

How does this seeding moguls thing work? I’m being serious here, I have no idea how that’s done.

Either does our new groomer lol... I've never been around in the middle of the night to see how he actually does it but Ty (at blue) would till deep and push small offset piles (seeds) of snow that we basically ski around to set moguls. It doesn't seem like rocket surgery but he certainly had the spacing down in both directions to make for some sweet bumps. Once they get too deep or scratchy he'd mow 'em down and set a fresh set

Right the runs are short so they need some bumps for diversity.

Nobody is asking for seeded bumps, although we did have some a few years back. They made the seeded bumps with a groomer then fine tuned with a shovel. Was pretty interesting how they were able to do most of it with the groomer.

How Belleayre used to make bumps was blowing soft gun powder on a trail during the day while it was open. It would naturally bump up and the bumps were pretty nice!

raisingarizona wrote

How does this seeding moguls thing work? I’m being serious here, I have no idea how that’s done.

Not sure exactly how it works but when there is enough snow, Massanutten started seeding two types of bumps about five years ago.  On Paradice on the upper mountain, there is a zipper line built along skier's left.  It's 2-4 bumps wide and perhaps good for 40 turns.  The other bump trail is MakAttack ends up with much bigger bumps, 2-3 wide for 10-12 turns.  MackAttack is steeper and is rarely groomed after bumps are formed.  They use them for instructor training.  My friend's son learned to ski bumps on Paradice during a ski school day when he was 7 or 8, along with three other boys about the same age.

My impression is that the groomer that does the bump seeding is the one they use for the terrain park features.

raisingarizona wrote

The ski runs at Bell all ski nearly exactly the same making the need to groom every one  of them even less imho. Jus sayin.....

How does this seeding moguls thing work? I’m being serious here, I have no idea how that’s done.

January 18 Friday
Good day of skiing better snow conditions for what me and Jim where expecting out from 930am to 3pm ish
I was smart er today compared to last time their few weeks ago. Can't wait to get my rocker chamber ski that in closet at home
Bindings and Wax and sharpening
Their going to make North East usually snow typically days here much better than what currently on I guess. Lol
Never been on chamber or rocker ski before but I can see mostly 1 in half inch skiiner then my current skis which is like to wide for every day usage I can't wait to use them

Friday January 28, 2020
Good day of skiing
From 10 to 3pm
They made a lot snow
Yahoo was open I did it once small bumps seen on hill sweet
Great sun and comfortable temperatures
They did very nice job fixing everything skied well.

https://www.change.org/p/mike-pratt-president-ceo-orda-restore-belleayre-s-diversity-of-terrain-to-suit-all-ability-levels/u/25671869


Thank you to everyone who signed the petition.

This is my personal interpretations of the meeting.

We discussed the following:

Mike says he read the petition and the comments. We talked about whales and bumps and groomers.

I think we have made our point as we have bumps on Winnisook, Yahoo and Onteora.
Note: No promises were made about this since weather conditions are an important consideration.

Onteora has since been groomed, it needs to be dusted similar to Winnisook.
I think Tongora will be left ungroomed, perhaps 1/2 Belleayre and/or Peakamoose weather conditions permitting.

I pointed out lower Wanatuska and explained that it is a great place for people to learn on how to ski/ride bumps. Made the point that over the years, we have had clinics and competitions there. Also expressed the safety aspect of the bumps on lower Wanatuska.

Discussed the lack of intermediate terrain on the west side when lift 8 does not run. Meaning there is no access to lower Dot, Seneca, Peekamoose, Pepacton and Esopus from the Gondola. The solution will be a switch back similar to Onondaga between Seneca and Dot.

Beginners and the new "Lightning" lift: I don't think anything can be done about how the area is configured. This is a quote from Mike Pratt “The mountain is completing highly complex construction projects and the operation is changing. The Staff too are transitioning. The Staff expectations are high as they are at all of the ORDA Venues.“

I brought up employee morale, specifically about Bruce. I expressed my displeasure based on my observations on how I've seen him interact with employees. I also expressed to Mike that I had hoped that Bruce would adapt more to Belleayre and not try to remake it in Hunters image. I'm not sure how this is going to work out.

Food and Beverage issues: Sunset Lodge was open with food service for the first time all year.

Glade area maintenance: it needs to be done even if we need volunteers to help.

Cell tower repeater needs to be put back on at the Discovery Lodge.

I thanked him for our recent improvements such as the gondola and lodge and expressed on how much we all love to ski at Belleayre.

Mike also expressed this to me as well “ORDA understands the efforts being made to improve Belleayre are changes, but the heritage and past successes are valued. There are many additional changes on the horizon that will improve the experience, especially if the successes of the past are considered and enhanced where possible.”

Good to know, I think I might actually head up to to the Cats this weekend for a change and check it out!

Skied Belle yesterday and today.  Pro-stoke disclaimer - any bad day of skiing is better than most things other than spending time with those we treasure in our lives.  What follows is an attempt to let you all know what I have been seeing over the past year and a half, really accelerating this year.  

Yesterday's conditions were in some areas good quality, but higher up parts were hard pack or dust on crust largely with some nice surprises. The bad part is they had 16 buses in and really cannot manage the number of people they are getting in, and appear not to put employees in basic positions that could help with crowd control.  

You all know that I am pretty stokey, but some real sad parts this weekend (discussed below).  I really just don't know if the mountain can bring me back next year.  Seriously thinking about a Vail pass, going to Hunter (which was less crowded than Belle this weekend!) a fund trip or two out west . . . .  My son, who loves skiing, sad to me this weekend that we should really look for a new everyday mountain.  Kind of sad.  

Actual conditions:  

Saturday.      Way. Too. Crowded.  Me:  Thinking the super bowl weekend is great, I will be happy.  Arrival:  lot attendant tells me 16 buses are coming.  Things were fine but way too crowded.  As a result of grooming changes (list everything as groomed, but go 1mm deep), some things get skied off quickly.  On lower part of mountain, lots of fun, soft, snow.  My wife's friend and I jumped up to the top.  I take her to Algonquin because it was listed as groomed.  She is a strong skier but doesn't ski frequently anymore.  Said trail ends up being dust on ice.  We had fun on it, but it was not anywhere near MP packed powder.  

    Later that evening, I bump into a group of 20-somethings, who tell me that Hunter had very few lines.  Never thought I would see the day where Belle has longer lines than Hunter.

Sunday.        A very fun short day solo.  This morning was really, really fun.  Wife and kids did not ski to hang out with friends up in the Cats.   I was on the Gondi at 8:30 and skied 2.5 hours up top.   Seneca was good for a few runs.  Tongora was listed as groomed but was a yellow hardpack sheet of doom.  Really fun bumps on lower Tongora and on Yahoo.  Onteora skied pretty well.  

One of my favorite things about skiing is skiing with my family.  One of my favorite things about skiing is occasionally getting to open up at my own pace.  

Sadness about things at the mountains:

-While in the past Belle would actually post the conditions as worse than they are, now they over post, like so many ski areas.  Case in point:  conditions this weekend were listed as 'packed powder and machine groomed packed powder'.   It was mostly hardpack.  I don't care about that, but it is emblamatic about what is happening at the mountain.  

-They seem to be making an effort to bring in crowds, but then are cutting down on attendants, volunteer patrollers, and ski school.  Not a good recipe.

-They state plan.  As for the layout issue highlighted in the petition, I found out from an employee this weekend that the carpet at the bottom of the hill (that creates huge traffic jams) is being moved back where it was (which makes a lot of sense).  Too bad that is a complete waste of time, energy, and money.  

-Whatever learning being done on the job by the management has made for an increasingly poor return-skier experience.  

-All types of stakeholders important to the mountain do not seem stoked.  I am not talking about skiers - I am talking about all the types of people who are needed for the mountain to operate.  

-My go to places to hide from the crowds depend on two fixed-grip lifts on the mountain.  One of the two (Tomahawk) was done, and I heard rumours it is out of operation for the season.

Dom, have you tried Catamount?  It’s got a lot in common with Belle in some ways. Way better then Belle in other ways in my opinion. Los of positive changes since getting purchased too.