Christmas holidays, intermediates, where to go?

A friend's husband is insisting they go skiing during the Christmas holidays since they are going to visit people in northern NJ and Albany.  He's an upper intermediate.  She's a cautious lower intermediate.  They both learned as older adults in recent years at a small place in northern Virginia skiing 15-20 days a season.

Driving limit is about 4 hours from NJ or Albany.  Any useful suggestions on where should they consider going for a few days?

4 hours from NJ is quite different than 4 hours from Albany, but I'll play:

Woodstock NY (Ski Plattekill, Belleayre, Windham), Gore NY, Pico VT, Burke VT, Bretton Woods NH, and Owls Head QC (extending the drive to 4.5 hours from Albany).

A good intermediate between albany and northern Jersey?

Catamount
windham
Belleayre
hunter
plattekill ( upper end, probably one of the stepper areas, but far less crowded)
mt. Creek ( can be a mad house)

ML...what she is saying is that they will be in both NJ and Albany and would drive 4 hrs from either place.

While Plattekill has a lot of expert terrain, it is likely to be the most sane ski area in the East on any holiday.

I had to suggest Whiteface to get the full LP experience.  There are usually a few days not super busy.  The 26th is not bad at all to ski.  

I'm also very partial to Pico and it has nice Blue terrain.  It almost never has a lift line over a few minutes.

During Christmas week, you have crazy crowds in an early part of the season.  This means that if you are booking early, don't book at a place that has anything less than the best in snowmaking and grooming.  Good snowmaking and grooming means good conditions and a mountain that is fully open.  Insufficient snowmaking and grooming mean that there will be a fraction of the mountain open, and poor conditions (except in the off chance that there is a big snowstorm).

I do not recommend Gore or Whiteface.  Both have insufficient snowmaking capacity and take till almost President's Day to fully open.  Whiteface didn't open all their sections till February 1st, and Gore didn't open all their sections till February 8th last year.  Even when fully open, Whiteface is only fully enjoyed if you are an expert skier.  Their blue terrain is borderline black and would be marked double black at a place further south.  When fully open, they are both better than the places I will list below, but they will most likely not be anywhere close to being fully open for Christmas.

I say to go to Windham or Hunter for most cases.  They both have really good snowmaking and should be almost fully open.  They are within pretty easy reach to both North Jersey and Albany.  Both have plenty of terrain for an intermediate skier and they both groom a lot.

Windham has better intermediate terrain than Hunter, so that might be the best choice, but Hunter has more snowmaking.  Even after a nasty warm up, last year, Hunter had the entire front side open during Christmas Week despite no natural snow and 2 significant r*in events.  Windham did pretty well also, but Hunter did the best that week.

If you are willing to drive a bit further, I would go to Southern Vermont.  I say that Stratton would be the best there.  They have the best lifts which means less lift lines than the others and they have great snowmaking and grooming, so they should be almost fully open with good conditions.

If you want to go somewhere right in NJ, Mountain Creek is the only option for intermediates as the smaller places in the region are primarily for beginners.  Keep in mind that MC usually has only opened a couple weeks prior, and they will have a hard time being fully open.  They usually get all the lifts running, but there will be few trail options off each lift which means that not only will you wait in a huge lift line, but the trails will be crazy packed too.  It will basically have mediocre conditions and be overcrowded the entire week, so I recommend avoiding it in favor of Windham or Hunter except if the proximity to North Jersey is very important.

snoloco wrote

If you want to go somewhere right in NJ, Mountain Creek

Also, if I misinterpreted the question I would also like to suggest Greek Peak.

freeheeln wrote

Sno,
I have to totally disagree about WF and Gore during the holiday week.  I have skied WF each Christmas for the last seven years and while the mountain is not completely open, there is a lot of snow and the trails rarely crowd up.   They put more snow on Excesior than MC blows on the entire mountain.  The Summit is normally open as well.  

The runs are long, Boreen is a great teaching run..Upper and Lower valley are challanging for intermediates, but not overly so.  In addition, there is a lot going on in the Town of Lake Placid.  

As for the drive, I do it every weekend....its 4 hours to 4:15 to LP.

Whiteface is usually more open than Gore during the holidays.  I skied Gore during the holidays in 12-13 and it was totally packed.  It took 25 minutes to get up the access road at 8:15 and the lift ticket computer broke which slowed things down even more.  It was fully open so I went straight to the Ski Bowl and had a good day overall, but I couldn't imagine the nightmare if it was only half open.  Whiteface is a better option for Christmas, but you must be an expert to enjoy it.  Paron's Run, Victoria, and so many of their other blues would be blacks at any other mountain and when I have gone during President's Day were icy and overcrowded with people who shouldn't be on them.  WF is so awesome for experts because of all the vertical, but for intermediates, can be overwhelming and scary.

I'm begging Loco to please stop or start your own blog dedicated to the goodness that is MC

Harvey wrote

ML...what she is saying is that they will be in both NJ and Albany and would drive 4 hrs from either place.

While Plattekill has a lot of expert terrain, it is likely to be the most sane ski area in the East on any holiday.

Harvey wrote

ML...what she is saying is that they will be in both NJ and Albany and would drive 4 hrs from either place.

While Plattekill has a lot of expert terrain, it is likely to be the most sane ski area in the East on any holiday.

Yeah, my concern about Plattekill is that although her husband would love it, I think she wouldn't be too happy spending 2-3 days there.  I know what trails they ski at Massanutten.  He stays on the blacks at the top while she is only comfortable on the blues.  A Plattekill blue is closer to a black at any of the VA ski areas they have been at so far.

I checked out Plattekill last winter on a Friday a couple days after a snowstorm.  Had a very good time!  I'm an advanced skier who skis blacks out west at places like Alta and Big Sky, about 50/50 groomed/ungroomed.  Have a reason to be in Lake Placid during ski season for a few years.  So been exploring what the northeast has to offer.

Harvey is correct, they are willing to add the ski days either near northern NJ or starting from Albany.

kenneywallace wrote

A good intermediate between albany and northern Jersey?

Catamount
windham
Belleayre
hunter
plattekill ( upper end, probably one of the stepper areas, but far less crowded)
mt. Creek ( can be a mad house)

Between Windham, Belleayre, Hunter, is there one that would be less crowded during the holidays?  I think the point of doing some skiing is for the husband to check out a mountain that has more than the 1100 ft vertical at Massanutten.  So that takes Catamount and Mt Creek out of the running.  My friend would enjoy Belleayre based on my one day there last March.

ml242 wrote

4 hours from NJ is quite different than 4 hours from Albany, but I'll play:

Woodstock NY (Ski Plattekill, Belleayre, Windham), Gore NY, Pico VT, Burke VT, Bretton Woods NH, and Owls Head QC (extending the drive to 4.5 hours from Albany).

Between Pico and Burke, any difference in lift lines and crowds on the green/blue trails?  Any idea if the lodging options are similar?  The added complication is that they are likely to be traveling with an elderly dog.

marznc wrote

Between Windham, Belleayre, Hunter, is there one that would be less crowded during the holidays?  I think the point of doing some skiing is for the husband to check out a mountain that has more than the 1100 ft vertical at Massanutten.  So that takes Catamount and Mt Creek out of the running.  My friend would enjoy Belleayre based on my one day there last March.

It really depends on the day. Plattekill (1100 vertical) is never crowded. They have some snowmaking and get decent lake effect snow. If it snows they will all be crowded except Plattekill. If it hasn't snowed yet then Hunter or Windham or Belleayre. The best blue/low blue terrain is a toss up between Belle and Windham with Windham generally more crowded. The Catskills are around 2 hours from north NJ.

They should not go to Whiteface. It is not a fun place for low intermediates.

Gore will be the least crowded of the "within 4 hours of north NJ". The next least crowded would be Bromley. Other choices would be Mt Snow, Stratton and Okemo although these places are usually very crowded over the holidays. Pico is another interesting, less crowded choice for the holiday period.

While the terrain will be way better than what your friends are used to, the weather can be hit or miss with extreme cold all the way to 50 degrees and rain.

ml242 wrote

Also, if I misinterpreted the question I would also like to suggest Greek Peak.

This...Greek is a fun hill, has a great Hotel,  decent intermediate terrain, and it's a cool vibe there. Snow shouldn't be an issue with our recently improved snowmaking. Can't wait to see them fire that baby up this year!

I have skied Pico on President's Day last year and it was great.  They had just gotten 2 feet of natural snow and the place was fully open with plenty of powder still untracked.  However, they have water supply issues and need a lot of natural snow to open fully.  Many of the trails have no snowmaking whatsoever, and on some that have it, it isn't used.  They also don't groom much which can be hard for intermediates.  The lifts are also old, and the chairs do not have any padding, but they worked fine when I was there.

At Hunter, there is a lift bottleneck getting to the summit.  Only the 6-pack and F-Lift get you there and that causes some serious lines.  The best intermediate terrain is off the D-Lift which goes up 2/3 of the way and never has a line.  Hunter's trail ratings are inaccurate in many areas.  Certain trails are marked as black that should be marked as blue.  These are Jimmie Heuga Express, Drop Off, East Side Drive, Minya Konka, Lower Crossover, and Mikly Way.  All of these can be skied pretty easily by an intermediate skier.  Hunter also has a lot of lift capacity for their acreage which means tons of people on the trails.  Their best thing is the snowmaking as they open faster than anyone else and have better conditions unless there was more natural snow further north.

Windham has tons of intermediate terrain on the main mountain and they groom a lot.  They do have issues with lift capacity.  There is an aging HSQ from 1993 as the main lift and a painfully long and slow 1983 triple as the backup.  One tip is that no matter how long the line is, it is faster to take the HSQ than the triple.  The triple and their other fixed grip lifts are stopping constantly as their clientele has a hard time loading.  On some lifts, it is normal to stop 4 times in on ride.  On the triple next to the HSQ, I once slowed down 12 times in one ride.  There is also a nice long run off the East Peak called Wanderer which is marked as a green, but is perfect for a low intermediate.  However, there is also a blue off the same peak called World Cup which should be marked as a black.  It is double fall line, windswept, too steep, and narrow.  I find it harder than some of the blacks on that peak, so it should not be skied by an intermediate skier.

I have never skied Bromley, but I have been to Stratton.  It skis similar to Windham, but is much bigger.  Their lift are their best thing.  There are four 6-packs that do 3,600 pph at 1,100 fpm.  What that means is even with big crowds, you get up the mountain fast.  They have great snowmaking and grooming and the trails aren't too crowded.

If there is a lot of natural snow, Plattekill should be a great option.  They will have lift lines of max 2 minutes and untracked powder all day (although not exactly great for an intermediate).  All the other places will crowd out with lift lines 10-15 minutes or more.

snoloco wrote

There are four 6-packs that do 3,600 pph at 1,100 fpm.  What that means is even with big crowds, you get up the mountain fast.  

No, what that means is that they can clog their ridiculously lame terrain with more Bognar-clad beaters  from Westchester County, LI and Jersey than any other ski area in the East.  I can't believe you'd tell anyone to go to Stratton.  Your love affair with high speed lifts is creepy.

Just go to Gore.

Its early in the year.  Most times only man made trails will be in play.  Whoever makes the most snow is the place to go around Christmas.  Killington, MT Snow, Okemo and Stratton.  Cant speak on the Cats but pay attention to the weather. Snow making temps are better up north.