Hickory Alpine Club

billyymc wrote

Adk Jeff wrote

Coach and Camp, membership details are on the club's website, which is linked in the interview as well as in Harv's blog post, but essentially it's a $1,000 initiation fee (that's for a family, singles are $500) plus $525 annual dues ($375 single).  The primary benefits of membership are access to the club's clubhouse (planned for Dec 2016) and discounted passes/lift tickets to Hickory.

So I can either:

1) Go to Hickory and pay the cost of day pass, ski, take off my boots in the parking lot, and go home or

2) Go to  Hickory and pay the cost of a day pass less a few $, plus $1,000, plus $525 per year, ski, take off my boots in the club building, and go home.

It is a tough decision, but since I graduated from high school, and do work involving difficult maths and numericals, I'm going with option 1.

Frankly, I come to the same conclusion, although the intangible value of supporting Hickory clouds the equation.

Clarification on Option 1 above:  You don't have to boot up in the parking lot.  The existing lodge will still be available to all.  You just won't have access to the Clubhouse.

Harvey wrote

Maybe put a plumbing loop that goes up Top Notch/Hare and down Ridge Run.

I'd love to see more information on the snowmaking that is proposed, i.e. which trails, how many guns, what type of guns, how much capacity will the system have (acre/feet per day or whatever), what will the installed system cost, how much will it cost to operate, etc.

x10003q wrote

They have a huge dilemma  - they need to get people to pony up money hoping that they get some snowmaking installed. The risk is the snowmaking never happens.

I beleive if they don't get enough members during the initial subscription period, they won't move forward and everyone gets their money back, so I don't believe there's any risk there.

x10003q wrote

If the snowmaking does happen, the question becomes will they have enough cash flow to use it.

That's where the risk comes in.  My understanding is that club initiation fees and annual dues will be going towards paying for the snowmaking equipment and the clubhouse and cabins that are proposed, not towards operating costs.  Even limited snowmaking is expensive, so there will have to be significant lift ticket and season pass sales to support the operating costs.

x10003q wrote

Coach Z wrote

I would think they should raise the fees and then make it totally private so you have to join to ski there.  That might work better and the hook is having the pow to yourself.  There would be more takers for that I would think and it would raise more cash.

Some private golf courses that the approach to only let you play a few rounds at a higher rate before you have to join.  

I'm probably going to get some haters on this but I figure that they are down to desperation tactics now and its either this or become one if those lost ski areas.

No hate.......
Going totally private requires deep pockets from the members and those with deep pockets are usually not interested in buying into a place that needs so much help to open (zero snowmaking), surface lifts and no slope side private housing. The Warrensburg area is not a snow belt or a luxury resort either.  

They have a huge dilemma  - they need to get people to pony up money hoping that they get some snowmaking installed. The risk is the snowmaking never happens.

If the snowmaking does happen, the question becomes will they have enough cash flow to use it. Next week's xmas weather forecast is pretty common for the northeast. One good gully washer flushes a lot of dollars down the drain.

Yeah, those people ski Stratton or Stowe, if they even ski in the east, or they jump on a plane for five days out west.

Just cut the trails once a year, let everything else go, get a used snow cat and ski with 15 of your buddies 1/2 dozen times a year

Hi Guys,

As Jeff pointed out in an earlier thread I (David Cronheim) do post here. I'm on the Hickory Board of Directors and helping to spearhead the HAC efforts. I'd be happy to provide the board's perspective where possible. I'll keep it brief here since a lot of you have probably read some of the things I've said about the club elsewhere.

I will correct one error in the thread previously, though. Hickory isn't asking members to make a bet when joining that snowmaking will be installed. Snowmaking and the club are linked. If Hickory cannot recruit enough members (and let's hope that is not the case), no one who committed to the club will pay Hickory a penny. (Also, the dues absolutely support operation of the snowmaking system). The determination will be made in early April after seeing how the recruitment effort goes.  So far the interest level has been amazing. There's a lot of love out there for our wonderful hill.

As someone who is intimately  familiar with the books, the facts on the ground are pretty simple. You've got a mountain which currently is not profitable, but needs snowmaking to have a chance operating enough to make a profit. Snowmaking costs money to install and to operate. Therefore you need additional revenue. Hickory cannot sell enough day lift tickets in a season to be profitable without putting so many people on the mountain that it would overburden the lift infrastructure that makes it unique in the first place.  The Hickory Alpine Club is Hickory's solution to the problem of how to make Hickory sustainable without changing its character. There are a lot of other possible solutions out there (some even discussed here), but we saw no other that allowed Hickory to remain as close to unchanged as possible.

Thanks ! You guys are doing a good thing. You may also want to consider a kickstart campaign. Sometimes very large money is raised very fast through the kickstarter, gofundme, et al internet sites.

Good luck we're pulling for ya !!!!




Hickory..... It's Hard !!!

snowballs may be onto something with the gofundme. use the power of the internet. i would also raise rates for powder days. the ski club seems like such a long shot to me. i never notice a lot of families at the place, just hardcore skiers. i am really pulling for hickory. love that place

Good luck with that Dave.

Some great suggestions here. As promised, I'll try to chime in so you have some more background info. First, there's no amount Hickory can charge for lift tickets that would pay for the cost of installing and operating a snowmaking system (you'd be talking about several hundred dollar daily lift tickets). Second, even if Hickory raised upfront capital through a kickstarter or similar campaign, it would need a source of continuing revenue. The goal of the Alpine Club is to give people something for their money and support of Hickory in exchange for a stable, long-term source of revenue. New York law doesn't allow a co-op structure except in limited instances (agriculture, dairy, etc.), but the club is intended to provide a similar type of support to the Mad-River co-op.

CUontheslopes131 wrote

 First, there's no amount Hickory can charge for lift tickets that would pay for the cost of installing and operating a snowmaking system (you'd be talking about several hundred dollar daily lift tickets).

What ? West Mtn does it. Willard does it.

sig wrote

i never notice a lot of families at the place, just hardcore skiers.

I think it's a common mis-perception that Hickory is for experts only.  It's actually a great place for families.  Here's a trip report from when I skied Hickory with my 6-year-old son.  Regrettably that was the last time I got to Hickory, but hopefully that will change this winter.

I really want to see Hickory achieve some form of sustainability.  I’m open to the possibility of participating in the Hickory Alpine Club, but I’m having some difficulty seeing how it would work for my family.  The rub is that participating in the club would not replace my family’s Gore/WF passes, so the club would be a substantial (to me) additional financial commitment.  Being a financial guy, before I make that kind of commitment I’d like to understand how the numbers will all come together to result in snowmaking equipment (big $$s) plus clubhouse and cabins (more big $$s) plus a sustainable income statement for the ski area (which by all accounts is a money pit).  Those financial details aren’t in the membership information package, so is there additional information that you can send me Dave?  PM sent.

CUontheslopes131 wrote

Second, even if Hickory raised upfront capital through a kickstarter or similar campaign, it would need a source of continuing revenue. The goal of the Alpine Club is to give people something for their money and support of Hickory in exchange for a stable, long-term source of revenue. New York law doesn't allow a co-op structure except in limited instances (agriculture, dairy, etc.), but the club is intended to provide a similar type of support to the Mad-River co-op.

Wait a minute.  Hickory's already got a shareholder structure in place.  Instead of the club concept, why not raise capital for snowmaking by issuing additional shares?  Instead of a membership drive for the club, you'd have a shareholder drive.  But then at least those who participate would receive tangible value for their investment (i.e. share(s) of stock).  While you wouldn't have the ongoing revenue from the annual club dues, you also wouldn't have the costs of the clubhouse and cabins, which must eat up at least some of those dues.  Instead, what you'd have if the stock subscription drive was successful, is a functional ski area with snowmaking that skiers would presumably want to buy lift tickets and passes to.  To me, that seems like a better way to directly address the issue of raising funds for the snowmaking that is needed to make Hickory sustainable.  The club concept seems to beat around the bush and results in expenditures that don't really address Hickory's needs (i.e. the clubhouse & cabins) and just generates a whole bunch of cloudiness and questions about how the club spends its money, who owns snowmaking equipment that is purchased, what the club gets in return for subsidizing ongoing operations, etc etc etc.

Jeff,

Happy to address any questions you might have - I saw your PM and will reach out to you offline. In short, though the problem Hickory is a revenue one, so the solution has to be one which raises revenue. Skipping the securities law implications from looking selling shares (see e.g. Magic Mountain as an example of how that is a lot more expensive, complex and problematic than many realize), raising capital does not address the problem that Hickory needs an additional source of revenue annually. I've alluded to it elsewhere in this thread, but the number of lift tickets Hickory would have to sell on a daily basis to break even would outstrip the uphill capacity of the vintage surface lifts that are at the heart of Hickory's appeal to many skiers.

Dave

Just to bring this full circle, I talked with David this afternoon (thanks for your time!).  The key to how this will all fit together (initiation fees + annual dues = snowmaking + clubhouse + ongoing support to the ski area) lies in the membership recruitment goals.  Earlier in the thread I mentioned family dues of $525 annually with a $1,000 initiation fee.  There another higher level of membership with $2000 annual dues and a $10K initiation fee.  That level of membership includes access to club lodging.  The club's recruitment goals include participation at both membership levels.  I don't know exactly how many membership commitments are needed to pull the trigger and move forward with the snowmaking investment (probably a $1 million investment), but whatever that target is, it has been set to provide not only a substantial portion of the initial snowmaking investment (from the initiation fees) but also the ongoing support Hickory needs to operate the snowmaking equipment and become financially self-sustaining (from the annual dues plus season pass sales).

Bottom line is I'm more comfortable with how this might succeed.  If the membership recruitment goals are met, there will be sufficient up-front money and ongoing financial support to make this work. If the goals are not met, the project doesn't move forward and prospective members get their money back.  I hope it all comes together and moves forward.

You in Jeff ?

i dig hickory , but thats alot of coin, on top of a gore pass

Way to cut to the chase boys.  Short answer... maybe.  It's still an additional cost on top of our Gore passes.  But, Warrensburg is quite a bit closer to Saratoga than North Creek, so Hickory fits really well when we want to ski less than a full day.  And then there's the powder days...  So maybe.

Best day at Hickory:

Michaeltokyo wrote

Best day at Hickory:

I've never skied Hickory, I have a goal to ski there this year. I will wait until they get dumped on. Thanks for posting these pics, it's piqued my interest in making it there this year. Looks amazing.

It's just too much money. That guy earlier in the thread was right. I can have a near identical experience by not paying the $1,000 initiation fee and $575 a year. That's $1575 I'm saving. For that money, I could have bought a day ticket every day Hickory was open in the last 3 years and still had money left over for skis.

No freaking way.