How to Control Access to the Whiteface Slides?

ADmiKe wrote

raisingarizona wrote

If WF only requires you to have a beacon and not at least a shovel their policy is ridiculous. They are then blatantly admitting that it's a BS policy for thinning the heard and has nothing to do with snow safety. It's just silly!

I guess it's good for the guy in town that sells beacons.

People ruin everything.

We've all been just saying beacon to simplify the discussion, but it is beacon/shovel/probe.

Cool, thanks for clarifying that for me. I’m glad my point wasn’t totally lost there.

I missed The Slides this weekend when I was elsewhere on a trip booked in advance.  I've been in there twice last season both on gold days.

There was a large number of people in there who didn't belong both times, although it was no worse than Skyward on a busy day, since the ungroomed surface in The Slides slows everyone down.  I can ski them just fine although I avoid the super tight lines and ski much more cautiously than I would on a regular trail.

I didn't have the gear back then but I do now.  I got hooked from skiing them when the gear wasn't required and asked for it for Christmas the next year.  I hope I can use it (go in The Slides on a silver day, not need to dig someone out) before this year is up.

My opinion on all of this is that there's too many people who get in there over their head, and with the new intermediate marketing focus there's going to be even more.  The instructor evaluation idea is too subjective, and someone is going to get let through and then rejected the next time.

I really think the avy gear all the time policy is the best approach.  So that the cost isn't prohibitive and there's a try before you buy option, offer a number of sets for rental on a first come first serve basis on days that could be Slides days.  If The Slides don't open that day, you get your money back when you return it.  You'd have to take a short one time course on how to use a beacon to be able to rent one.  Yes I had help from my parents, but I agree with tjf that if you can afford to ski enough days to be good enough to ski The Slides, then you should be able to afford to own or rent avy gear to ski The Slides.  

Also, moving the traverse up could be a good idea as it would lengthen the run by about 200 vertical.

I buy a ski3 pass for $285 through my school. You expect me to use almost a third of that (if i can truly get one for $80 and that doesnt include shovel and probe) to possibly ski a trail that opens for a few days a year in my experience. You do have a good point that I probably could come up with the money (not sure which college people have enough time to collect $80 worth of bottles) but it seems like a pretty stupid investment unless I can afford equipment to actually go backcountry skiing.

And also it seems more like tough shit to you because the current policy is in my favor.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

I think that making the entrance harder might be an option. Make it look super intimidating, build a knife edge traverse, make people take their skis off and put them on on a super steep slope... All that before they even get to where the current entrance is. Basically move the entrance down Parron's a ways and set up an obstacle course along that top traverse back towards the top of the lift. Make it easy enough for locals & experts, but a tremendous pain in the ass for the intermediate skier. That'll separate the wheat from the chaff.

Hmm, that's essentially what happened at Taos because too many people riding up the Kachina lift had no business trying to ski down from the top.  The second season they reworked the entrance to the lift.  First a traverse that went uphill just enough that most people have to at least pole or walk in their skis for a minute or three.  Then have to ski down a short steep and narrow section with a tight turn, usually on a slick surface.  Apparently once that was in place, there were people who would bail before getting on the lift.

On busy Saturdays, the Kachina lift loads only every other chair to keep the numbers on the slopes down.

Does Gold Status always mean a conga line forms going in?

It's not in my favor. Why because I have a beacon? Its a solution to a problem and it takes all subjectivity out of it.

Atomicski wrote

Harvey,

Mostly all the weather pages, but I do check the forums for opinions on the weather data because I don’t have much experience reading models.

I cant wait to see the new feature this summer.

 I'm having a good day!

Thanks.

Some real evolution, I like it.

Harvey wrote

Some real evolution, I like it.

Ok. +1

All upside with a consistent avy gear policy.  

Moving access to original access (outlaw trail) has been pushed and should be part of program.  Having people access slides right where chair swings downhill is a lawsuit waiting to happen

Add an electronic gate that swings open based on beacon signal be cool too.

WF could build a whole snow awareness program based on avy program. Rent beacons and have a search course setup at Bear Den where people get basic how to.  

Be pretty unique aspect and betcha it would be popular.  

If they rented beacons at a reasonable price I would be more for that idea.

I would be interested in that class if whiteface offered it though. It would be cool to offer a discount to season pass members for both the gear and the class as well.

The solution on Gold days is simple and it does not involve the unneeded beacon. Just limit the amount of skiers that can enter the slides. I am sure the ski patrol has some ideas on what the slides can handle safely. Have a clock and let x amount of skiers in every 15 minutes, or some similar type of formula. Since some have indicated that Silver requires a beacon, shovel and probe, yet nobody is checking for the shovel and probe, it might be better to just have a smaller number allowed in every 15 minutes. If there is a long line you have the choice to wait or leave and everybody has the same chance to get in to the slides.

This type of system removes the absurd notion of using a beacon (or a Seiko dive watch or diamond earrings or Smith Turbo Fan goggles) as a pass to get into the slides.

Do both.  Anyone who has skied WF for a long time has seen crown lines on the upper reaches of the Slides closer to the summit, above where people ski.  Even if unlikely, it IS avalanche terrain, so Silver status will be prudent sometimes.  Once it goes Gold then limit ppl per hr.

Also, for the benefit of those who haven’t spent significant time studying avalanche forecasts and risks, who haven’t spent time with professionals in avalanche terrain, and who haven’t dug pits and studied snowpacks (I’ve done all that to and still just scratched the surface), I’d point out that snow science is extremely complicated.  In the PNW this year the NWAC was perhaps a little behind the curve in identifying persistent weak layer issues that have been buried out there since the beginning of February.  The first two weekends of March there were as many as 8 fatalities (skier, snoeshoer, and snowmobile rider).  While the same risks might not present themselves here it’s serious stuff.

I’ve personally been in the Slides, just last year with Mike, when small loose wet slabs were running.  No, they weren’t going to bury anyone, but they could have knocked a kid down, and if it happened in the wrong place they could have sent someone over a ledge or fall.  

Mike and I also skied the Wilmington Slide off the Cooper Kiln trail on Sunday.  When we got near the summit I was legitimately concerned about wind slab up high.  Having some experience we read the terrain carefully and practiced conservative route finding on the upper section.

Putting completely unfamiliar people in those kinds of conditions isn’t wise.  So don’t discount the avy risks here in the east, even if such risks might not always be the driver behind Silver status.

x10003q wrote

The solution on Gold days is simple and it does not involve the unneeded beacon. Just limit the amount of skiers that can enter the slides. I am sure the ski patrol has some ideas on what the slides can handle safely. Have a clock and let x amount of skiers in every 15 minutes, or some similar type of formula.

In the past, they've done exactly this. They'd let about 10 people in, then wait 10-15 minutes, and let the next group in. I was actually pretty surprised on Saturday that they weren't doing this, and I'm not really sure why they weren't. The only thing I can think of, is that the unloading area for the summit quad is pretty tight, and having a line of people waiting in the unloading area presents its own set of issues. As it was, on Saturday morning, the chair was stopping every 5 minutes because people were having trouble unloading at the top. They had even written on the chalkboard at the base, "Push Away From Chair At Top".

As for the avy gear policy itself, to me, the real issue with having people in the slides who don't belong there is the danger they present to other people, and to ski patrol, should they have to go in there and pull someone out. For me, it has nothing to do with wanting to "keep it to myself", however, I do want to be sure that I'm safe in there, and I don't want to have to worry about someone slamming into me because they're in over their head. Yes, the same dangers exist on a regular trail, however, the terrain in the slides magnifies things considerably.

Yes, the gear is expensive, however, we're not talking about a "perishable" item. Once you have the gear, it should last "forever". I bought a complete set, beacon, shovel & probe last year on Amazon for $220. As others have pointed out, once you have the gear, you might be more likely to get more interested in back-country adventures. I'd look at that as an upside.

I think the thing that keeps getting lost in this discussion, is the "ease of access" problem with the slides at Whiteface. It's just too easy, for someone who gets to the top of that chair, to decide to "give it a shot". I guess if you want to solve that problem, then as others have said, the solution would be to make the access to the slides MUCH MORE DIFFICULT, making that the "barrier to entry" instead of the gear requirement.

That said, from a management perspective, which is easier? Just have the gear requirement, which costs the mountain absolutely nothing, or, spend time, money & resources to change the access point. If I was in charge, I know which choice I'd make.

Hey, maybe we can retool this guy!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dPOyOM7wxlE

OK Hang on I am going to try to break this thread out. (It looks like we could exceed 100 pages which would put this years conditions in two threads.)

Somebody is going to own it, no complaining. :)

I'm going to lock this thread for the time it takes me to do so, please hang on.

EDITED TO ADD: I did my best. There are a few comments that probably should have been moved back into WF Conditions, but breaking out a thread is a bit of a brain freeze for me when you don't do it right away, moving that stuff back would complicated I think. If you have a post that ended up in this thread and it should be in Conditions, feel free to copy and past it there with the day and time and I will reset the time.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

tjf1967 wrote

I'm calling bs if you can afford to ski you can afford a probe.  It's not a perfect system but it is fair.  If I have the gear I can get on the lift at Bridger bowl. No shovel and probe.

College Ski3 pass is $399. Beacons are $185 for the cheapest I can find? So, basically 1/3 of a year of skiing for a beacon? Seems like a lot of money to a college kid.

I just got the BCA Tracker for $160 new

there are lots of used beacons on ebay for around $75 to 100 as I just looked at them.

Of course you need the probe and shovel as well and know how to use them as PTex pointed out.  

If you cant take a level 1 course there is a great book called Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrian by Bruce Temper I would recommend.  I've done a lot of guided cat skiing a few days of which were in pretty high danger conditions and learned a lot from the guides during those days that probably doesn't make it into the courses.

I'll continue to point out that just because the slides have been ski cut there is all that snow on the cirque above them that has not and is exposed to a lot of wind loads and sun during the spring.  Even when the slides are a bump field either a naturally caused or a skier coming in from the Hwy could cause an event above and then into them.  

The equipment seems like a good filter as well as possibly having the uphill pass that I mentioned earlier which could require some inside education to get maybe.  Those that were in the middle of it Saturday it all became very clear that something needs to be done about this.

I have not been paying attention this week but did they reopen them after Saturday?  Yesterday afternoon's sun may have softened them up but I was busy at work and didn't look at the web site to see if they opened.

To add to some other comments that were being made about generating some $$$ for the mountain off this...

Make it Silver all the time. Then:

Have some set of employees (host patrol, ski patrol, instructors, etc) who would be interested in becoming trained to offer sort of a low key guide service with beacon/probe/shovel lesson in the morning of projected slides opening days, which you pay whatever price for a whole day experience including guide, gear rental, lesson, etc.  Maybe pair 6 ppl to a guide.  Would be pretty unique and sought after by the person who is looking to get in the slides, but maybe doesn't belong there "unsupervised", and at the same time is sort of training them to do it properly, maybe leading into purchase in the future of the gear and having already experienced using it to do so properly moving forward.

I'm thinking similar to Valle Blanche in Chamonix where guides take groups of 4-6 ppl, many who prob have never skied such a thing.

Of course, this would not apply to those who own the gear, they carry on as usual.

Is this an end all solution?  Of course not...someone will eventually buy a beacon/shovel/probe just for the sake of carrying it.  But how likely and often is this to happen?  Probably pretty slim.  But it will drastically change the current situation and probably reduce the number of ppl who should't be in there from whatever % it is now, down to like <5%.

The Slides are a major asset and Whiteface should leverage that.  Maybe they don't get as much snow as some other premier eastern resorts like Stowe and Jay, and maybe they don't have the thinly spaced hardwood tree skiing that some others have....but they have the frikin' SLIDES!  Practically in-bounds!  They should be doing everything possible to promote them (and I'm not talking dropping the rope for the masses to ski them out in minutes) and keep them open (safely) and avoid having a situation like this past Saturday with multiple bad injuries....because all that's going to lead to if it keeps happening, is less and less slide opening or maybe even a shutdown.  I guess in that case they will be silver status but add skins to the kit.

Still doesn't solve the problem of having to spend money to get in there, but hey, who said skiing was a cheap hobby?  There's ways to keep costs down of course, but at the end of the day, if you can afford to own skis and buy lift tickets or a pass, fuel your car to get to the mtn, etc.....then you can prob scrape up enough dough to buy a used beacon as Z pointed out are cheap on ebay.  And at that point, if you've struggled to purchase one...you'll prob be inclined to learn how to use it properly.

Bruce Tempers book is probably the best one out there. I have other ones too but they tend to be too science-y or basically tell you to stay away from any possible danger where Tempers book is all about how to navigate it.

It looks like there’s a lot of opportunity in there for trauma if you were knocked off your feet, a lot more so than full burial.