How to Control Access to the Whiteface Slides?

So what do you all think the benefit of a beacon is? Do you think they make people take the hazards more seriously? Does the $300-$400 purchase price raise the access bar enough to weed out casual skiers?  I'm genuinely curious what the various perspectives are. Any idea what the response time of ski patrol is for the slides when they let go? Do you all dig pits and do your own assessment before heading down, or is patrol's assessment enough?

ScottyJack wrote

Z wrote

There is a simple solution
Put a level 3 instructor  at the summit and make questionables  ski a run on Skyward or Cloud.....

That’s not simple. That is subjective and would result in bad public relations and increased tension level.

Simple solution is permanent policy beacon only access.  

No judgement call. No hurt feeling. No questions.

Beacons required at all times, rent beacons from base lodge.  Do qualification when you rent.  Use a script for consistency.  The end.

Brownski wrote

How about something like this?

I hate to say it but that would probably just stoke the Jerry factor. People do that hike just to get a photo in front of that sign. I'll admit I've taken a few pictures in front of that sign right before going through the gates. At least there you have a fairly steep hike straight up at 10k feet that dissuades people going up and out.

I think this is a pretty simple supply and demand issue. Currently the slides are "free", the supply is limited and the demand is high. Some sort of up charge would reduce demand. Not sure what the pricing should be but lets just say its a $30 add on for a day ticket and $15 for passholders. Passholders would also have a season long option for $100-$150 with a guarantee of a minimum number of slide days or you get your money back. I know it would piss some people off to have to pay an upcharge but it would prevent the average jerry who is on the summit chair and sees people coming down the slides and saying hey I want to ski that. "Its a double black and I ski double blacks in the poconos all the time". The $$ from slide passes would fund the extra patrol effort that is required to get the slides open and adequately staff them (along with someone scanning passes at the entrance).

Beacon will reduce possibility of injury by reducing number of skiers.  When it went from silver to gold there was five times as many skiers. So under silver maybe 15-20 skiers at one time to almost 100, well maybe not 100.  It was instant mayhem.  People clogging the traverse, back ups on slide in and two injuries pretty much at the onset of gold.

 It is a difficult rescue out of there.  Slides close because they have to replace sled. 20-30 minutes...  

timbly wrote

So what do you all think the benefit of a beacon is? Do you think they make people take the hazards more seriously? Does the $300-$400 purchase price raise the access bar enough to weed out casual skiers?  I'm genuinely curious what the various perspectives are. Any idea what the response time of ski patrol is for the slides when they let go? Do you all dig pits and do your own assessment before heading down, or is patrol's assessment enough?

I don't think the benefit has anything to do with ppl taking hazards more seriously.  Your average weekend skier likely will never own a beacon yet alone even know what one is/does.  And even if they know all about beacons, most ppl who ski a few times a year(and thus probably not as "good" of a skier by nature of skiing frequency) won't plop down $300-400 for such a specific use item like this.  All of this contributes to the overall fact that less ppl will show up on a weekend with a beacon in their possession, and it's cut and dry with no room for anyone to complain: no beacon, no slides.  Want slides? Buy beacon. Get lucky to be there with it when they open.

Sure, there will be customers who are angry about it who will bitch on social media etc. but then they can just go to one of the other Eastern ski areas with inbounds lift serve slide access......oh wait..........forgot....need to go a couple thousand miles west for that.....


I live 5 hrs from where I mostly ski(whiteface) so I'm no local despite spending a lot of time in the area, but still mostly a weekend skier.  I do a little BC skiing so I needed one, but also made the investment in the beacon/shovel/probe because I was sick of watching ppl ski the slides on a silver day and because being there midweek on a slides day is much more rare for me and figured they are likely to always be silver on a weekend

Whether I even know how to use it or what it does (which I do), is still semi-irrelevant to the argument, because there's going to be very few ppl who would own a beacon, having spent $300-400, who wouldn't have an interest in learning how to use it, etc.

People can get equipment to satisfy Silver cheaper if they want.  My first Peips Freeride was pretty cheap (read: not really good for BC), and people could find a used old beacon.  Could.  However, the typical intermediate skier, and skiers who didn’t even know what the Slides were until they got off the Summit Quad and someone told them they could join in the fray, just aren’t likely to invest that much thought, energy, or money into a limited use item for something that isn’t that important to them anyway.

Avid skiers, who like to push themselves.....they are the ones Jonesing for the Slides, and they are going to be more capable than people who aren’t, on the whole.  So requiring beacons, which have very little to do with avy concern in the Slides (but they do happen), will just keep a good number of less skilled skiers out.

I’d like the more for me aspect, but I’m not sure I’m a huge fan of beacon only.  There are responsible, good skiers out there with teenagers they want to introduce to the Slides, and most of those parents aren’t likely to have two sets of equipment.  

Would be an interesting study.....of the rescues Patrol has had to perform in there, how many of those victims would have been kept out (protected from stupidit.....injury) by a beacon only policy?

timbly wrote

So what do you all think the benefit of a beacon is? Do you think they make people take the hazards more seriously? Does the $300-$400 purchase price raise the access bar enough to weed out casual skiers?  I'm genuinely curious what the various perspectives are. Any idea what the response time of ski patrol is for the slides when they let go? Do you all dig pits and do your own assessment before heading down, or is patrol's assessment enough?

I don't know the Slides except for reading NYSkiBlog.  But the discussion makes me think of the Ridge at Bridger Bowl in MT.  Used to be hike only but then a lift was installed to the starting point of the Ridge ten years ago.  Still need to hike along the Ridge but that takes out a steep 20-30 minutes hike.  However, going to ski off the Ridge still requires a beacon even when riding the Schlasman lift.  It's possible to rent a beacon at several places near Bridger.  Bridger offers 3 hours with a Ridge guide for $225 for 1-3 people, which includes a beacon and shovel.  I know one of the guides.  He is a very experienced L3 instructor who also teaches a class for Univ. of Montana about skiing the Ridge.  Being a local non-profit may mean that Bridger has a better sense of how to manage access to the terrain.

"Bridger Bowl’s Ridge Terrain presents some of the most challenging skiing and riding within any ski area boundary. Numerous steep chutes, rock cliffs, and snow fields which may end in cliffs with no hazard markings, no grooming and no marked trails.

An avalanche transceiver (457 khz) is required for all skiers and snowboarders to access Bridger’s Ridge Terrain including riding Schlasman’s Lift.

It is strongly recommended to have a partner, a shovel and expert skiing or snowboarding abilities in addition to knowledge of the terrain before venturing into any of Bridger's designated lift or hike-accessed ridge terrain (View Ridge Guide)."

The Big Couloir at Big Sky also requires avy gear and checking in at the patrol shack.  Some people change their minds after talking with patrollers.

JTG4eva! wrote

However, the typical intermediate skier, and skiers who didn’t even know what the Slides were until they got off the Summit Quad and someone told them they could join in the fray, just aren’t likely to invest that much thought, energy, or money into a limited use item for something that isn’t that important to them anyway.

I think this pretty much sums it up ... When something is easy to get, or easy to do, people will do it, no matter what it is. When you make something more difficult, requiring some form of effort, fewer people will do it.

One thing I noticed in there on Saturday, were the NYSEF groups going in. The problem with this, was that you had 5 - 7 kids going in with a single coach. I saw one young kid at the top of Slide 1 who had fallen and was literally buried in the snow, and couldn't get himself out. The coach was about 15 yards down the hill. I was probably about 5 yards below the kid when I spotted him, and there was just no way I could climb back up to him to help him out. I tried to explain to the kid what he needed to do to get out and the coach yelled up to me "don't worry about it ... he's with me". So, off I went. I assume the kid finally got out, but he wasn't having too great a time at that point.

I don't think it was smart to bring kids in there (just my opinion), no matter how skilled they might be, without individual supervision. The gear requirement would have prevented this.

ADmiKe wrote

 
Sure, there will be customers who are angry about it who will bitch on social media etc. but then they can just go to one of the other Eastern ski areas with inbounds lift serve slide access......oh wait..........forgot....need to go a couple thousand miles west for that.....


 

Could always just go to Smuggs/Stowe ---- that Notch is loaded with that kind of stuff

Isn't it obvious? Do you have a beacon?

Yeah, I do own a beacon, but I rarely ski WF--never been there when slides are open--I use it for bc/Mt. Washington and western trips, where avalanches are a genuine concern. Apparently, beacons are for weeding out skiers who'd be in over their heads on the slides at WF, is what I'm getting from this thread, not so much for locating a friend/body in an avalanche.

They have slid, what do you think made them? They are called slides. It makes sense to me that everyone should have them for the unlikely event a slide should occur. Imagine it happens and people don't have beacons? It only makes sense any way you slice it. Slides happen in the adk periodically on pitches very similar to whitefaces so really it is only a matter of time and why not have the people in there prepared? The beacons necessary to get access to the slides are less than 100 bucks so it's not a money thing
 It's a preparedness thing.

Of all the trees, on all the mountains.....this line is damn high on the favorites list.  Hitting this gem untracked always makes a great day even better!

https://vimeo.com/260857396

Coulda used more jump turns, seeing how you wedged through half of it.



No wonder you were huffing and puffing at the bottom. Your quads were probably pretty beat after being on opposing edges the whole time.

Hey, we can’t all be like you.  Except for your skiing I’m thankful for that!  

I was pretty happy with that, given I’m a 50 year old hack getting a dozen days a season, Mr. Young Instructor Gun!  Some day four Slide laps in less than two hours might make you breath a little heavier too, probably...

You're 50!?!?!

Damn.







I thought you were way older after hearing those wheezes!



(Just joking with you. Nice line. Good to have a spot to yourself... But you should come back in the summer and surreptitiously trim a couple of those branches to open your stash up a bit more).

I just bought a BCA Tracker new for $160 for my kid for his birthday

https://vimeo.com/260868632

Slides edit.  Slides 2/2B, 1, 4, and Trees to .5.  I was going to throw some music on this (maybe I still will later) but I left this au naturale for now.  You know, so as not to take away MC’s fun of laughing at an over the hill dude performing inadequately and breathing heavy.....just like his wife gets to do on a regular basis!  

campgottagopee wrote

Could always just go to Smuggs/Stowe ---- that Notch is loaded with that kind of stuff

Talking about lift served stuff that's a 5 minute walk.

tjf1967 wrote

They have slid, what do you think made them? They are called slides. It makes sense to me that everyone should have them for the unlikely event a slide should occur. Imagine it happens and people don't have beacons? It only makes sense any way you slice it. Slides happen in the adk periodically on pitches very similar to whitefaces so really it is only a matter of time and why not have the people in there prepared? The beacons necessary to get access to the slides are less than 100 bucks so it's not a money thing
 It's a preparedness thing.

This is what I'm getting at. Previous replies to my query have all been about beacon ownership as the bar for skiing the slides. Nothing about the associated skills and equipment. Seems like there're a lot of assumptions and general grouchiness about the unprepared people in the slides, and nothing about how to be prepared. What if people get the impression that a 100 dollar beacon is all they need? Or does this blog only get read by people with active usernames?