Idea to Improve Ski Bowl Usage at Gore

The issue is likely that Gore needs a Marketing staff that knows something about marketing.

Harvey wrote

brooklynrob wrote

That the locals are hostile to "outsiders", especially NYCers, is immediately apparent

I have not had this experience, at all.

Me thinks it's all in the attitude

tjf1967 wrote

That is a statement that comes from some inferiority jealous complex. It's not even close to true and the dollars spent over the past 15 years prove it.

I wasn't saying it was true, I was just saying that I've heard this stuff before which had me skeptical.

Also, I'm not singling anyone out who happens to come to Gore from NYC. You're awesome.

This is my opinion on why Gore doesn't get all the tourist love..

First the name Gore..It's a ugly name, Whiteface / Stowe/Okemo/Mt Snow/Sugarbush..Pleasant sounding names. You get Gored by a bull..

Next the mountain is not visually good looking...This not a dig on the skiing...From a distance Gore is down right ugly..Whiteface is stunning and so are so many others. Even Stratton and Mt Snow look cool from a distance..

And of course the usually lodging and restaurants...

Amen, you don't build out two new pods, install two brand new High Speed Quads and a fixed grip triple because you are trying to stifle Gore. I see this Gore vs Whiteface crap and its just a crock of shit.

We just need to realize North Creek will never be Lake Placid and the allure it has. No matter how much money is spent at Gore you are never going to make it that. Not enough people give a shit. Those that do go to places that have long history established, like Stowe and like Whiteface/Lake Placid. The rest just want the on-mountain, all inclusive, Stratton, Okemo, Killington, etc etc experience. Thats who Gore competes with, not Whiteface.

Gore is at a disadvantage because, like Whiteface, it can't have slope side hospitality. Whiteface lucks out because It has Lake Placid with its lodging, dining, history, etc etc etc that its makes it easily marketable as a destination for people in NYC 4-5 hours away.

What would there marketing slogan be for Joe and Jane NYC'er driving 4 hours? "Come to Gore where you will need to find random accommodations some what sort of near by, hit and miss dining options, non existence night life, and a good deal less Snow than Vermont".

If ORDA is focusing on day trippers from the capital region and surrounding areas for Gore, they are well served doing that because really given circumstances that are currently outside their control thats the most logical customer base to get.

tjf1967 wrote

That is a statement that comes from some inferiority jealous complex. It's not even close to true and the dollars spent over the past 15 years prove it.

Up your's. We're talking about marketing dollars. Orda spends more promoting Face than Gore.

brooklynrob wrote

Case in point, I was in Paragon Sports (in Union Square, largish sportstore with a larger ski section) a month ago. Only one of the staff had even heard of Gore and he had not visited.

He must not be a real NY skier.  Probably reads the NY Times annual ski section for his info.  As for the rest of the staff, I'd be like:

brooklynrob wrote

That the locals are hostile to "outsiders", especially NYCers, is immediately apparent[. . . ]

I've had mixed experiences.  All the folks inside the base lodge and the rental lodge are incredibly friendly and helpful.  We've had great experiences with the Ski Sports instructors for lessons.  (One less than ideal unwanted experience on piste.)  Some of the lift operators are grumpy, but hey, what would you be like in hour 5 of serving a lift line?  One really bad experience at Marsha's in town -- what a dump:  https://www.yelp.com/biz/marshas-family-restaurant-north-creek-2?hrid=7pqaKM9R8VeMr-fRkiVO7g&utm_campaign=www_review_share_popup&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_source=(direct)

brooklynrob wrote

My sense is that because Gore is so big and state owned its future is deemed certain, but I don't see why that is when they seem unable or unwilling to market to NYC. In 5-10 years, in a different economy, with more pressures on state coffers, or a different political direction, who is to say the state will want to stay in the ski business?

NY State monetary support to the ORDA budget is less than $15mm from a total state budget of about $95 BILLION.  This isn't even loose change rattling around the politician's pockets.  And of the $15mm, only $4mm is operating subsidy.  The chance of state funding going away completely is slim to none.

brooklynrob wrote

That said, I represent the type of skier (well, rider) who wants a big mountain with a lot of terrain, but can't really stand the attitude of Killington and Stratton (my recent trip notwithstanding -- chose Stratton as I needed to be slope side for my wife who doesn't ski or drive). I want to ski (ride) with my kids and focus our trip around the skiing. I think there are lots of folks who would love a larger mountain that puts skiing at the center, and keeps the pretension to a minimal, and Gore is well positioned to be just that. It should and can be the low key alternative to Killington. And as Brooklyn resident, my gut is that a low key Gore (maybe with curling) will be a lot more attractive to urban millennials (yes, I mean "hipsters") than the Killington or Stratton scene. That's the generation that is going to power the ski industry for the next 30-40 years.

Interesting viewpoint, but I don't understand -- you decry the pretension and attitude of Killington and Stratton, but now that you have discovered Gore, you want every hipster family in Brooklyn to show up in the base lodge, asking where the organic sushi burritos are?

I was like you -- I bought the Ski3 pass 4 years ago when we made Belleayre our home mountain, did two weekends at Gore that season, and have been renting a seasonal condo at Gore ever since.  You fall in love with the mountain.  The endless vistas of the High Peaks.  The quiet solitude of trails through Adirondack forest.  And you say to yourself "I can't believe no one else comes up here!  This place could be great -- if only they had a gondola from town to the base -- if only there were some slopeside lodging -- if only, if only, if only."  You picture yourself and your family strolling down main street in your ski boots after a hard day of skiing.  You think of Lake Placid and you ask, "Why not here?"  

brooklynrob wrote

I think it's a special place and a great mountain

100% correct here.  But one of the key reasons it is special is because it is not like other resorts.

brooklynrob wrote

I think a middle path of staying true to its roots but making a bit of an effort to attract more folks from NYC might benefit all concerned, and might head off the mountain and town having to make hard choices in response to a crisis or worse.

They survived the 2008 and 2009 financial crisis.  If anything worse than that comes along, skiing is going to be the last of our worries.

BTW welcome to the board, good to have some new blood.

Petronio

evantful wrote

Amen, you don't build out two new pods, install two brand new High Speed Quads and a fixed grip triple because you are trying to stifle Gore. I see this Gore vs Whiteface crap and its just a crock of shit.

We just need to realize North Creek will never be Lake Placid and the allure it has. No matter how much money is spent at Gore you are never going to make it that. Not enough people give a shit. Those that do go to places that have long history established, like Stowe and like Whiteface/Lake Placid. The rest just want the on-mountain, all inclusive, Stratton, Okemo, Killington, etc etc experience. Thats who Gore competes with, not Whiteface.

Gore is at a disadvantage because, like Whiteface, it can't have slope side hospitality. Whiteface lucks out because It has Lake Placid with its lodging, dining, history, etc etc etc that its makes it easily marketable as a destination for people in NYC 4-5 hours away.

What would there marketing slogan be for Joe and Jane NYC'er driving 4 hours? "Come to Gore where you will need to find random accommodations some what sort of near by, hit and miss dining options, non existence night life, and a good deal less Snow than Vermont".

If ORDA is focusing on day trippers from the capital region and surrounding areas for Gore, they are well served doing that because really given circumstances that are currently outside their control thats the most logical customer base to get.

Well said.

Petronio

tjf1967 wrote

That is a statement that comes from some inferiority jealous complex. It's not even close to true and the dollars spent over the past 15 years prove it.

Yes, dollars have been spent on expansion, yet Gore is still only drawing a little over 200K visits per season. That is a failure to get the message out. As I have mentioned many times, Gore is not advertised in the NYC metro area. How is it that Whiteface, a mountain an 1-2 hours farther from the NYC metro area than Gore with a smaller amount of the terrain most skiers enjoy when compared to Gore, is advertised in NYC metro and Gore is not promoted in the NYC metro?

It is easy to point to the local Gore marketing, but in the non-transparent ORDA, where the bulk of the Board members represent Lake Placid, it could be that Gore marketing is limited in budget and scope by ORDA. For many years, two of the Board members owned huge lodging properties in Lake Placid. Did they really care if Gore pushed over 250K visits? It does not seem like it is a priority.

Gore could easily handle 250k-300k visits and not change the skiing experience. That would mean more money for ORDA, more money for Gore, and more money for North Creek. It would show the governors and legislators who fought for the expansion funds that the money was well spent to improve the North Creek area economy. The Lake Placid board members clearly see Gore/North Creek as competition for Lake Placid, even though North Creek is nothing like LP. They are afraid of the 2 things that Gore has over WF, closer to the masses and more and better terrain for the masses.

Harvey wrote

brooklynrob wrote

That the locals are hostile to "outsiders", especially NYCers, is immediately apparent

I have not had this experience, at all.

Again, the "hostility" to outsiders I take to be very normal in most tourist towns, including the one I grew up in. It's a gruffness mostly, as well as an outright rudeness a couple times I've experienced, along with spotty service at establishments in North Creek.

Like I said, I'm not looking for Killington (or Beaver Creek's "Not Exactly Roughing It") when I go to Gore/North Creek. I'm a hick from Maine who just ended up in Brooklyn and just wants to ski (ride). But *IF* North Creek/Gore did want to market itself more to NYC, I think this attitude would limit that growth a bit, or at least end up limiting some establishments ability to develop repeat business. That said, you could go to Park City and find locals who resent "outsiders." Again, I view this as normal.

Petronio wrote

brooklynrob wrote

That said, I represent the type of skier (well, rider) who wants a big mountain with a lot of terrain, but can't really stand the attitude of Killington and Stratton (my recent trip notwithstanding -- chose Stratton as I needed to be slope side for my wife who doesn't ski or drive). I want to ski (ride) with my kids and focus our trip around the skiing. I think there are lots of folks who would love a larger mountain that puts skiing at the center, and keeps the pretension to a minimal, and Gore is well positioned to be just that. It should and can be the low key alternative to Killington. And as Brooklyn resident, my gut is that a low key Gore (maybe with curling) will be a lot more attractive to urban millennials (yes, I mean "hipsters") than the Killington or Stratton scene. That's the generation that is going to power the ski industry for the next 30-40 years.

Interesting viewpoint, but I don't understand -- you decry the pretension and attitude of Killington and Stratton, but now that you have discovered Gore, you want every hipster family in Brooklyn to show up in the base lodge, asking where the organic sushi burritos are?

I wouldn't say I *want* "every hipster family in Brooklyn to show up in the base lodge, asking where the organic sushi burritos are".

I just also don't want to do the "I've discovered a great place but I hope I can keep it a secret from everyone else" given at the end of the day it (Gore) is a business (albeit state owned), and a business needs revenue to survive, and survival and growth allow me the opportunity to continue to patronize the business. I definitely don't want Gore to become Stratton (I'm pretty sure that's the general mood of this board). I just find it a head scratcher, as an admitted newb to the board and Gore, that it appears there is so little effort to appeal to such a big market (NYC) when clearly distance is not the limiting factor for Killington, etc.

Petronio wrote

I was like you -- I bought the Ski3 pass 4 years ago when we made Belleayre our home mountain, did two weekends at Gore that season, and have been renting a seasonal condo at Gore ever since.  You fall in love with the mountain.  The endless vistas of the High Peaks.  The quiet solitude of trails through Adirondack forest.  And you say to yourself "I can't believe no one else comes up here!  This place could be great -- if only they had a gondola from town to the base -- if only there were some slopeside lodging -- if only, if only, if only."  You picture yourself and your family strolling down main street in your ski boots after a hard day of skiing.  You think of Lake Placid and you ask, "Why not here?"  

Yes, I can relate strongly with that sentiment. I see a mini Park City in North Creek as crazy as that might sound. Again, not saying anyone wants that, but the place has good bones (the train track being one of those) *IF* it wanted to draw more from the nearby urban centers.

Thank you for your kind words as well.

brooklynrob wrote

I just also don't want to do the "I've discovered a great place but I hope I can keep it a secret from everyone else" given at the end of the day it (Gore) is a business (albeit state owned), and a business needs revenue to survive, and survival and growth allow me the opportunity to continue to patronize the business. I definitely don't want Gore to become Stratton (I'm pretty sure that's the general mood of this board). I just find it a head scratcher, as an admitted newb to the board and Gore, that it appears there is so little effort to appeal to such a big market (NYC) when clearly distance is not the limiting factor for Killington, etc.

True dat. Most here have had those thoughts. But then it's, " Hey short lift lines are cool. ".

When the " under utilized " issue comes up, poor ORDA marketing for Gore gets mentioned, somebody from Face gets bent, and then the day goes on.

It is kinda odd that Gore isn't marketed more. Big hill, semi-close to urbania, and pretty much unknown to many. A lot of dollars are being left on the table for sure.

brooklynrob wrote

I just also don't want to do the "I've discovered a great place but I hope I can keep it a secret from everyone else"

You should have seen the pissing match a couple years back when someone mentioned the "secret" parking at Gore -- like mentioning it on a backwater internet forum (no offense, Harv) was going to have it end up on the evening news.

Petronio

However it got out, it's out, on the Ski Bowl.  Last weekend the place was jamming, parking lot full.

Still the Bowl has a small mountain advantage.  Just like the main Gore base, you can get a parking spot and boot up in a civilized fashion, if you arrive before the lifts spin.  The difference is that regardless of when you leave, at the Ski Bowl, it is also a pleasant experience.

brooklynrob wrote

Again, the "hostility" to outsiders I take to be very normal in most tourist towns, including the one I grew up in. It's a gruffness mostly, as well as an outright rudeness a couple times I've experienced, along with spotty service at establishments in North Creek.

I have never experienced any gruffness as a visitor in North Creek but I probably don't come across as one either. Spotty service, yes - welcome to the Adirondacks, it isn't all about you up here.

PeeTex wrote

brooklynrob wrote

Again, the "hostility" to outsiders I take to be very normal in most tourist towns, including the one I grew up in. It's a gruffness mostly, as well as an outright rudeness a couple times I've experienced, along with spotty service at establishments in North Creek.

I have never experienced any gruffness as a visitor in North Creek but I probably don't come across as one either. Spotty service, yes - welcome to the Adirondacks, it isn't all about you up here.

HAHA! But I want people to buckle my boots and tell me how incredible I am like they do at Deer Valley! I'm from New York City if you didn't know! That's New York....not, up-state.

JasonWx wrote

First the name Gore..It's a ugly name, Whiteface / Stowe/Okemo/Mt Snow/Sugarbush..Pleasant sounding names. You get Gored by a bull..

Bahahaha!

It could be worse.....like Titcomb Mountain, Crotched Mountain or Suicide Six.

Dude it's like Greenland and Iceland ok?  We have our reasons.

Harv,
You are marketing guy...
Look at the names of all the MAJOR ski resorts...
Of course there are a few clunkers..But 95% have a name that draws you in..

Snowbird/Alta/Powder Mt/Aspen/Snowmass/Vail/Heavenly /Crystal/Whistler etc
They make you think of snow, winter or the mountains..