Idea to Improve Ski Bowl Usage at Gore

PeeTex wrote

...do you hate old people?

To be fair, they all drive slow and generally get in the way with their canes and their wheelchairs.  So I guess I
...oh, wait, I am old.  Maybe a ski-in, ski-out nursing home isn't a bad idea.

mm

Put some rockers on their walkers. Give 'em a push.  

Snowballs wrote

Put some rockers on their walkers. Give 'em a push.  

(Hopefully) You too will be there some day sonny.

Getting this back on topic and with caveat that I'm writing this as 1) a snowboarder and 2) a NYC resident, which may make my contribution non grata...

My son and I "discovered" Gore 4 years ago. I've skied (well, ridden) most of the larger east coast mountains (with one notable exception, Jay). Gore is now our favorite mountain here in east along with Sugarloaf (which was the ski mountain for Colby where I went to school so it has a special place in my heart. It's also just a ton of fun). The combination of terrain and variety make Gore a big winner in my book.

When we first went to Gore, we stayed at the Gore Mountain Lodge, which is now our regular spot and got talking with the owners there in their yurts about Gore and its long term strategy and outlook, which is obviously crucial for their business. What occurred to me as we discussed the ski bowl in particular is that you have something almost totally unique in the east coast, and perhaps with the except of Winter Park in Colorado, unique in the country -- train track to slope access.

Mind you, the walk from the North Creek station to the slopes is far, but not a totally crazy length for a NYCer (maybe so long as you're not carrying skis). Add a shuttle (or gondola/lift) and you're in business. Of course, there is the other obstacle that the train service itself is not a single service from NYC...

Anyway, what occurred to me is that if commercialization, monetization, and expansion were the primary goal (they may well not be; I know many want to keep Gore a hidden gem), that North Creek has the essential infrastructure in place to make it possible to ride a train on a Friday afternoon from Penn Station and in 4-5 hours be spitting distance from the train platform to the slopes is an enormous asset. Add a sizing and rental service on the train so you can pick up your skis when your arrive, and all the better. And one can squint and see in North Creek a mini Park City given the ski bowl comes into the town (yes, I know that gives some shudders).

Of course, all of this costs money, a lot of money. I also have gotten the very clear sense that some in North Creek would rather that North Creek and Gore stay undiscovered. But if the question is how to improve ski bowl usage, I'd say the thing to look at first is ski bowl's proximity to the train and in turn the largest metropolitan area in the country.

Getting this back on topic and with caveat that I'm writing this as 1) a snowboarder
Being a Snowboarder I find it perplexing that Gore is your cup of Tea. I can't think of another area that is more user unfriendly to Snowboarders.

http://poststar.com/news/local/railroad-pulls-plug-on-winter-snow-trains-to-north-creek/article_f6922816-5354-5494-9181-8755773e293d.html

Do you mean service wise? Or in terms of flats?

Service wise I think Gore is just generally unfriendly in terms of staff. It's ain't Beaver Creek, that's for sure, but again, that may be by design to keep it a "hidden gem." I've just some to accept that some of the Gore staff are going to be surly.

In terms of terrain, yes there are some flats (most notably Lower Cloud; the transverse to the Ski Bowl is a non-starter for boarders too having done it once), but like any mountain you learn where they are and how to plan for them.

I had heard this might happen, but hadn't seen the article @Spongeworthy. Thanks.

This is no surprise to me -- the train was conceived as a tourist train, and it should be instead structured (marketed and priced) as transit from NYC and Albany directly to North Creek. The ski train was priced wrong and, critically, schedule wise did not meet up with the Amtrak from NYC. As I recall there was a 2 hour gap to North Creek at Saratoga, and then a 6(!!) hour gap on the way back. It goes without saying no one wants to sit in the Saratoga train station for 2-6 hours waiting for a train connection.

Like many NYCers I don't own a car. While ZipCar has made it easier, it's still a hassle to rent a car, though that's what we do now usually when we go skiing. To prove it could be done though, three years ago, I did do the train myself, with two sons, gear for all 3, on the 2/3 subway to Penn from Brooklyn, then Amtrak to Rutland with a shuttle to Killington. I can't say I recommend doing that, but it proved to me that it's possible, and unlike Gore, Rutland is half hour from the slopes.

Again, making the train work cost *a lot* of money, and that money would, I assume, only come if investors thought there was a market. Personally I think marketed and priced right - with one train service from Penn to North Creek with a plausible last mile service (e.g. a shuttle or better still a gondola) could succeed. But it's a long term vision that would take 5, probably more like 10 years, to happen, and a lot of money plus state and local commitment to make happen. The residents would need to, by and large, want it, not resent it. But if you look at the growth of the 4am bus services out of NYC, I think there is a market. Not saying it can or will happen. But in my mind's eye at least, it could.

...And again I caveat that I recognize that many people, including many on this board I suspect, don't want to see Gore/North Creek turn into Stratton or Park City. Just getting to the 1) improving ski bowl point specifically and 2) more broadly how to make Gore more economically viable for next 20-30 years (I think that means taking NYC and Phili market share back from VT, esp. Killington and Stratton).

I agree with your assessment of Gore. It is so much fun.

I think the problem with the train is that the tracks north of wherever need millions in upgrades and the ROI, in the short term is suspect.  I think right now the train has to keep it at 30 mph for a pretty long stretch.

brooklynrob wrote

 

Like many NYCers I don't own a car. While ZipCar has made it easier, it's still a hassle to rent a car, though that's what we do now usually when we go skiing. To prove it could be done though, three years ago, I did do the train myself, with two sons, gear for all 3, on the 2/3 subway to Penn from Brooklyn, then Amtrak to Rutland with a shuttle to Killington. I can't say I recommend doing that, but it proved to me that it's possible, and unlike Gore, Rutland is half hour from the slopes.

 

I admire your dedication to the sport of skiing.

There's no way I could do that.

Harvey wrote

I think the problem with the train is that the tracks north of wherever need millions in upgrades and the ROI, in the short term is suspect.  I think right now the train has to keep it at 30 mph for a pretty long stretch.

I you look at the timetable from NYC to Albany is pretty reasonable - around 3 hours, I think. But Albany to Saratoga is another hour, when it's about half that by car. And the tracks from Saratoga to North Creek are even a bit slower than that.

Unfortunately a bus trip makes more sense I think.

I'd like to see a curling rink at the ski bowl.

tom

brooklynrob wrote

I had heard this might happen, but hadn't seen the article @Spongeworthy. Thanks.

This is no surprise to me -- the train was conceived as a tourist train, and it should be instead structured (marketed and priced) as transit from NYC and Albany directly to North Creek. The ski train was priced wrong and, critically, schedule wise did not meet up with the Amtrak from NYC. As I recall there was a 2 hour gap to North Creek at Saratoga, and then a 6(!!) hour gap on the way back. It goes without saying no one wants to sit in the Saratoga train station for 2-6 hours waiting for a train connection.

Like many NYCers I don't own a car. While ZipCar has made it easier, it's still a hassle to rent a car, though that's what we do now usually when we go skiing. To prove it could be done though, three years ago, I did do the train myself, with two sons, gear for all 3, on the 2/3 subway to Penn from Brooklyn, then Amtrak to Rutland with a shuttle to Killington. I can't say I recommend doing that, but it proved to me that it's possible, and unlike Gore, Rutland is half hour from the slopes.

Again, making the train work cost *a lot* of money, and that money would, I assume, only come if investors thought there was a market. Personally I think marketed and priced right - with one train service from Penn to North Creek with a plausible last mile service (e.g. a shuttle or better still a gondola) could succeed. But it's a long term vision that would take 5, probably more like 10 years, to happen, and a lot of money plus state and local commitment to make happen. The residents would need to, by and large, want it, not resent it. But if you look at the growth of the 4am bus services out of NYC, I think there is a market. Not saying it can or will happen. But in my mind's eye at least, it could.

...And again I caveat that I recognize that many people, including many on this board I suspect, don't want to see Gore/North Creek turn into Stratton or Park City. Just getting to the 1) improving ski bowl point specifically and 2) more broadly how to make Gore more economically viable for next 20-30 years (I think that means taking NYC and Phili market share back from VT, esp. Killington and Stratton).

I admire you for actually trying the train. As I suspected, there is a big difference between possible and reasonable. I could never bring myself to do the train, either just me, or with my boy and wife when we lived in Manhattan. The hassle and time and cost never add up if you are a regular weekend skier. I realize a car in NYC is expensive, but humping all that equipment thru the subways/train stations at rush hour would be a disaster. This is why the ski train just barely works.

For North Creek it would never work as there is just no market in NYC for Gore. We can give a Big Thanks to ORDA for failing to buy advertising for Gore anywhere in the NYC metro area.

Why would you promote the largest ski area in New York State in the largest media market in the USA? It would only overrun the ski area and North Creek with profits and nobody wants that.

TomCat wrote

Harvey wrote

I think the problem with the train is that the tracks north of wherever need millions in upgrades and the ROI, in the short term is suspect.  I think right now the train has to keep it at 30 mph for a pretty long stretch.

I you look at the timetable from NYC to Albany is pretty reasonable - around 3 hours, I think. But Albany to Saratoga is another hour, when it's about half that by car. And the tracks from Saratoga to North Creek are even a bit slower than that.

Unfortunately a bus trip makes more sense I think.

I'd like to see a curling rink at the ski bowl.

tom

The drive from Saratoga to NC is about 1 hour not 30 min.

Curling at the skibowl, interesting... Not my cup-a-tea but I see curling being the elderly cold weather lovers version of shuffle board - I might even take it up once I can no longer ski (which some say I am already there).

x10003q wrote

Why would you promote the largest ski area in New York State in the largest media market in the USA? It would only overrun the ski area and North Creek with profits and nobody wants that.

Well in actuality, it would probably piss off the locals so you might be right. Although, I was talking to the bus driver at Garnet Hill earlier this winter, and he said that Gore Mountain management is not interested in bringing in a lot of outsiders mostly as employees but also as customers. because the general buzz around town is that Gore is supported mainly by its local market which doesn't really extend much past Albany. I don't remember how he worded it exactly.

Now, this guy couldn't couldn't make sense of that, and he said he thought they needed to expand their market to keep the place afloat.

Thought that was strange, but interesting.

According to Google Maps the drive from my house in Brooklyn to the follow areas is as follows:
- Stratton: 4:15
- Killington: 4:48
- Gore: 4:12

So, as has been mentioned, it's not the distance to Gore from NYC, it's the marketing, given how popular Stratton and Killington are with NYCers (and more difficult a drive -- Gore is pretty much a straight shot up 87). Case in point, I was in Paragon Sports (in Union Square, largish sportstore with a larger ski section) a month ago. Only one of the staff had even heard of Gore and he had not visited. Above the skis and boards were huge ski maps of Windham, Hunter, Stratton, Killington, and several west coast mountains. No Gore.

(Side note, Windham is 2:47 from Brooklyn and markets itself as a day trip ski place to NYC -- really not much further to Gore, though I'd not do Gore as a day trip; the bus companies are now doing Stratton though as day trip which seems like a lot of time on a bus on one day).

That the locals are hostile to "outsiders", especially NYCers, is immediately apparent (with the notable exception of my new friends Mark and Matt at Gore Mountain Lodge). Growing up in Kennebunkport, which relies a lot of tourism, I am familiar with this phenomena in places that rely on tourism as a significant industry. It is what is. People want the money but not the visitors.

I am not an expert on the ski industry, but from what I see the trend, like in golf, is away from the smaller hills (the par 9s in golf) to large resorts. That's probably in part due the widening income gap in this country, but again, it is what is. Along with Sugarloaf, I grew up skiing on Black Mountain, a small mountain in NH which I love, but which has been closed a couple seasons recently and is always on the edge of closing. We all know areas that we loved that have closed. Except for diehards and/or those who live near mountains, skiing, like golf, is out of reach for the middle class.

My sense is that because Gore is so big and state owned its future is deemed certain, but I don't see why that is when they seem unable or unwilling to market to NYC. In 5-10 years, in a different economy, with more pressures on state coffers, or a different political direction, who is to say the state will want to stay in the ski business?

That said, I represent the type of skier (well, rider) who wants a big mountain with a lot of terrain, but can't really stand the attitude of Killington and Stratton (my recent trip notwithstanding -- chose Stratton as I needed to be slope side for my wife who doesn't ski or drive). I want to ski (ride) with my kids and focus our trip around the skiing. I think there are lots of folks who would love a larger mountain that puts skiing at the center, and keeps the pretension to a minimal, and Gore is well positioned to be just that. It should and can be the low key alternative to Killington. And as Brooklyn resident, my gut is that a low key Gore (maybe with curling) will be a lot more attractive to urban millennials (yes, I mean "hipsters") than the Killington or Stratton scene. That's the generation that is going to power the ski industry for the next 30-40 years.

Anyway, I will continue to go to Gore with my family and spread the good news of Gore to my skiing friends here in NYC. I think it's a special place and a great mountain and I think a middle path of staying true to its roots but making a bit of an effort to attract more folks from NYC might benefit all concerned, and might head off the mountain and town having to make hard choices in response to a crisis or worse.

brooklynrob wrote

Anyway, I will continue to go to Gore with my family and spread the good news of Gore to my skiing friends here in NYC. I think it's a special place and a great mountain and I think a middle path of staying true to its roots but making a bit of an effort to attract more folks from NYC might benefit all concerned, and might head off the mountain and town having to make hard choices in response to a crisis or worse.

Gore is one of my top favorites among all east coast skiing.  Living near catskills, I ski Hunter regurarly, and I'm usually skiing next to 9 NYCers for every 1 local or upstate skier. Even at Plattekill you get probably 7 out of 10. So, that's what I'm Used to. When I ski Gore, most of the people I meet on the lift are local season passholders, and it's just a different scene. In some ways I like it because the place is not inundated with "hipsters" but at the same time I want to see the place get utilized and be successfull. I was there probably the 2nd busiest weekend of the season which was not busy at all. Ideally, you get a lot of these people up at Whiteface too.

I think ORDA was trying to expand their market to the NYC area when they purchased Belleayre. The idea was they you could use your pass for Belleayre at Gore and Whiteface as well. I've heard many arguements about how that was a terrible idea and that ORDA's market will never be for the NY metro. TBH, I'm not sure it's working anyway. Aside from that. I think it was probably a smart move on OTDA's part. Maybe it will work over time. I betcha all of ORDA, even though it's state run,  has less money to play with than Hunter.

brooklynrob wrote

That the locals are hostile to "outsiders", especially NYCers, is immediately apparent

I have not had this experience, at all.

What about all the times Coach Z has said "NYC is not ORDA's market"

Or the kid driving the shuttle bus at Garnet Hill who says "Gore Management prefers locals"

Ethan you're definitely right, Gore is suppressed marketing wise and in actual usage. Many here feel that way. IMO, it's ORDA management's way of keeping a lid on the number customers. Less competition for Placid businesses and less snowmaking costs, etc, again saving money for Placid funding.

That is a statement that comes from some inferiority jealous complex. It's not even close to true and the dollars spent over the past 15 years prove it.