Ideas for Ski Area Improvements

Coach Z wrote

How close is Gore to its max trail mileage limit?

3.6 miles before Peace Pipe was added.

EDIT: Also deduct the extension of Hedges. I think.

Harvey said it was at 36 of 40 miles.  The trails that I showed here are supposed to be within it or close enough to sort of sneak it in.

I skied Killington this weekend and realized some of its pitfalls that can be corrected.

The biggest issue is that there are huge amounts of trail intersections that can be dangerous.  They have a lot of lift capacity for their acreage, so they need to do something about those damn intersections.

The best solution would be to separate some of these trails using pow's orange netting, but maintaining connections between Mountain areas.  One example of this would be where Skyelark and Great Eastern merge in and out of each other.  Allow for one spot to go between them and fence off the rest.  The other issue is the Great Northern trail bisecting the North Ridge area making it ski poorly.  If possible, they should cut a trail around the back of the peak to allow this route to exist without cutting some decent intermediate skiing in two.  Snowdon Mountain is by far the worst.  They need to do a lot of grading work and maybe even add some bridges and/or tunnels to fix it.

As for lifts, the Ramshead Express and Snowdon Quad need replacement.  South Ridge needs a lift.  Ramshead is a HSQ now, but needs to be a 6-pack.  There is massive trail acreage on that section, but the lift doesn't have the capacity to get them even moderately crowded.

The Snowdon Quad is underutilized and should be upgraded using the original Ramshead HSQ.  This would funnel a lot of people away from the K1.

South Ridge gets the Snowdon FGQ and now has a lift and Bear is better connected to the rest of the mountain.

Don't mess with Killington. It's awesome like it is. You said in your post theat they have enough lift capacity but it seems like you want Ramshead to be as crowded as Snowshed and Snowdon. Also, don't suggest that mountains put up orange fencing. Orange fencing is evil. If you don't like the crowded areas, go ski the uncrowded  areas. The nice thing about Killington is that it's big enough and diverse enough for everybody. As for all the green trails bisecting blues and blacks, the answer is to turn your lift ticket over and read the back of it. There's probably a set of rules there called The Code. It's on us as skiers not to run into each other. Even if that fencing wasn't ugly as hell, it would just create bottlenecks for exactly the people that can't handle them and make it even harder for snowboarders to keep up their speed on those green traverses. I like reading your posts but suggesting that Killington be more like MC or Camelback is just wrong; it's honestly depressing to me.

Killington is one of my favorite mountains.  I ski it mostly in the spring when it isn't crowded.  I like that it is so diverse and offers a ton of terrain for everyone.  

The only mountain area that needs more capacity is Ramshead.  Most crowded lift on the mountain and there's enough acreage off of it that adding capacity wouldn't make it like Snowdon or the top of Skye Peak.  I don't think they need any more capacity anywhere else.  They also need it in case the Pico interconnect gets built that will funnel a lot more people toward it.

I don't think that interconnect is ever gonna happen. They've been talking about it forever (at least since the late 90s when I worked there) Nimbyism is part of the VT culture now. In this case I'm good with it. Pico is great on its own anyway and Killington is big enough.

snoloco wrote

The biggest issue is that there are huge amounts of trail intersections

I thought it was a connectivity thing.

I am not even close to a Killy terrain expert but I assumed that the reason for all those intersections was connecting a huge mountain and allowing green skiers to get around (Great Northern?). I mean peeps might die in a collision but at least they won't have to skate!

All of this is wishful thinking unfortunately.  While they're one of the best mountains in the east, their operator is Powdr Corporation, which is the same people who forgot to renew the Park City lease.  

They have not spent a dime on improving the skiing since 2008 when they built the Skye Peak Express.  Then they reversed that upgrade by taking down the South Ridge Triple in 2011.  They however have built up the summer activities more, but that has no effect on the skiing.  They are trying to run it into the ground and spending all the money at Copper to try and compete with the massive homogenized resorts that Vail owns.  If Vail owned Killington, they'd do all of these upgrades in a heartbeat, but fund it through their amusement park/airline style nickel and dime tactics which harm the skiing experience.  Intrawest would do the same thing, but to a lesser extent.

snoloco wrote

All of this is wishful thinking unfortunately.  While they're one of the best mountains in the east, their operator is Powdr Corporation, which is the same people who forgot to renew the Park City lease.  

They have not spent a dime on improving the skiing since 2008 when they built the Skye Peak Express.  Then they reversed that upgrade by taking down the South Ridge Triple in 2011.  They however have built up the summer activities more, but that has no effect on the skiing.  They are trying to run it into the ground and spending all the money at Copper to try and compete with the massive homogenized resorts that Vail owns.  If Vail owned Killington, they'd do all of these upgrades in a heartbeat, but fund it through their amusement park/airline style nickel and dime tactics which harm the skiing experience.  Intrawest would do the same thing, but to a lesser extent.

Once again Sno, you prove that you haven't a clue as to what the fuck you are talking about. I have 24 days with my midweek pass in at the Big K this year (78 days overall) and I can tell you first hand that they having been blowing and grooming like no other mountain, PERIOD END OF STORY!
So, how about talking about something that actually do know about, like how to ski like a gaper

Isn't that place like the Jersey shore of Vermont skiing?

From a planning perspective the trail layout is indeed a shit show.

As I can recall, Killington has always had great snowmaking and grooming.  What they have not spent any money on is upgrading the lifts that need it, and have been kicking the can down the road with maintenance, which is why the South Ridge Triple wasn't replaced.  Any operator that had a clue how to do maintenance wouldn't have let that lift die to the point that it needed to be retired and would have planned to replace it by the time it did give out.

Connectivity between mountain areas is a good thing, but tons of trail intersections are not.  Great Northern is a good example of this.  They tried to make it the main route off the K1 Gondola, yet it cuts the North Ridge and Snowdon trail sections in half.  I have a Google earth trail map of the entire mountain, so I'll show a way to correct it soon.

I think they over did it with trying to make it so there were enough green runs so all abilities could ski off of most of the lifts and connect most of the areas. It's a cluster f--k and there are way too many catwalks cutting through fall line trails messing up the quality of skiing there.

If you know the area really well like a 70+ day a season 10+ year local I'm sure it can work but for a visiting skier the place doesn't induce flow at all. The majority of their target market probably doesn't get that anyways though.

Stowe used to pride themselves on how there trails were long uninterrupted fall line trails. The count was at around 45 for years since I could remember until years ago they decided to rename trails as upper/lower, a cheap and sleazy move imo. It's about the quality not the quantity but unfortunately the average consumer is too dumb to get that so they succumbed to playing with the numbers.

Was going to post one of these upgrade lists for Mount Snow, when I found out that they're already moving toward achieving my perfect model.  They're doing the West Lake snowmaking reservoir project in time for next season.  This will double their water supply and firepower.  This is the first step toward adding snowmaking to 100% of their over 500 acres of skiable terrain (which is their goal).  As a passholder to their now sister resort, Hunter Mountain, I'll be more than happy to help fund this project.  The only lift upgrades I could see happening are installing a HSQ on the Sunbrook section.  That is currently their longest fixed main fixed grip lift.  Otherwise, they have a huge lift capacity, and the trail acreage to support it.  The two triples on the North Face seldom have a line and are well suited to the terrain on that section, so no HSQ needed there.

Came up with a case of "musical ski lifts" that would complete a bunch of upgrades that are needed all over the place.

Mount Snow replaces the Sunbrook Quad with a HSQ and relocates the fixed grip to replace the Borvig double double at Attitash.  Get rid of another old, inneficient, and unsafe lift.  

Attitash replaces the Summit triple with a HSQ and sells the triple to Killington to add a new South Ridge lift.

I've never skied Sugarloaf, but they definitely need some lift upgrades.  The Superquad should be upgraded to a 6-pack and be called the Super6.  The quad gets relocated to replace the West Mountain Double, the longest fixed grip on the mountain.  Since that lift doesn't need much capacity, you don't need to run as many chairs, so some can be sold off.  Steamboat has the Pony Express which uses the same chairs and they want to add chairs and increase capacity from 1200 to 1800 an hour.  This would require 27 chairs to do.

Love when you can move lifts around so that more upgrades get done for less money.  One man's trash is another man's treasure they say.

OMG, why doesn't anyone care about improving their skiing experience.  Either way, maybe you will care if it's about Whiteface.

Whiteface has the most vertical in the east and some high elevation terrain that I don't feel is always taken advantage of.  I'd say that this should be used to their advantage and they should become one of the early/late season players.

To do this, first the following upgrades need to take place.  Add a third trail to Lookout Mountain and convert Rand's Last Stand to a trail which allows for a connection to the summit without going down and around through LWF.  Many snowmaking upgrades also need to happen to open much more terrain a lot quicker.  

As Z said a while back, Whiteface has a rather low base elevation of 1,100 feet, which isn't always easy to cover early in the season.  However, there are plenty of lifts that only run in higher elevations and there's a gondola to download on.  The early season setup would be to blow snow on 2 routes to start the season off.  Excelsior to Upper Valley, and Approach to Mountain Run.  The gondola would be used to upload and download and the skiing would be off the Little Whiteface Double.  Start blowing up there as soon as conditions permit and keep expanding upper mountain terrain as conditions permit moving onto Essex and Lower Northway, plus Wilderness, Mackenzie and basically everything on Little Whiteface.  Hopefully they'd open in early to mid November.

Once weather permits snowmaking at the base, that can be covered quickly.  Open Lower Valley, Boreen, and beginner terrain as soon as conditions allow.  This would end gondola downloading and bring the Facelift and Bear Double online.  This should happen by Thanksgiving.  Once those are done, move into the terrain park and racing terrain, bringing the Freeway lift online.

By mid-December, the summit and Bear Den Mountain should be on the priority list.  Open 2 routes off the summit, Paron's Run and Skyward to Victoria.  Bear Den Mountain is pretty flat and not too rocky, so a couple days of snowmaking in there should be able to open just about everything.  Now you've opened every lift except Lookout and the Mountain Run chair.

After the Summit and Bear Den Mountain are done, Lookout is the next priority just in time for the holidays.  Open for experts only at first with Hoyt's and Wilmington trail to Lookout Below.  Since Rand's Last Stand would be converted to a trail, it opens with Hoyt's connecting the Lookout and Summit lifts.  Then open Wilmington Trail to the base and the new trail I mentioned earlier.  

Once the holidays have arrived, they have all the lifts open and at least a few trails off each lift.  If it's a good year, they can probably achieve this well before Christmas and have 100% of snowmaking terrain open for the holidays, and that would be really impressive and bring many people to Whiteface/Lake Placid.

Now they'd also be a late season player too.

As February comes, start building base depth on all upper mountain terrain, which means everything that one can lap off the LWF, Summit, and Lookout lifts.  As early April comes, close down all lower mountain lifts except the gondola which provides access in.  Keep skiing on the upper mountain with a trail to the base as long as conditions allow.  When that trail rots out, put up signs saying "Walking or gondola downloading required".  Hopefully top to bottom skiing would last into mid April.  Upper mountain skiing would last into early May.

snoloco wrote

OMG, why doesn't anyone care about improving their skiing experience.

How do you come to this conclusion?

No one responded.  Figured it was the mountains that were in my previous post that no one really cared about.

 Some of your ideas are great. Everytime I approach Whiteface from the east, I am struck by how majestic it is. I like the idea of ORDA playing with their snowmaking a bit and marketing Whiteface as early/late option.

I think that Whiteface has huge potential to be one of the major spring players.  Lake Placid is never empty, so there's always a customer base that would be able to ski.  They just need more snowmaking to build up the base depth on a lot of terrain.  IMO, the best spring mountains are the ones that keep the most terrain open the latest.  My plan calls for 4 lifts to run (Gondola, LWF, Summit, Lookout) and all the trails open that can be lapped off those 3 chairs.  That's a ton of really awesome terrain.  Excelsior, Paron's Run, Wilmington-Lookout Below, Approach, and Mountain Run would be groomed daily, the rest would only be groomed in the event of a freeze thaw or to move snow around to keep coverage full.  Plenty of spring bumps to enjoy.  Also, be sure to have a BBQ at the Midstation deck with a DJ or even live music.  Keep the vibe festive.