Ideas for Ski Area Improvements

I meant something like this.  A perfectly reasonable setup if you ask me.

Your post immediately made me think of this:

ml242 wrote

What Hickory needs is a monorail to get customers from the lot to the Poma.

Uh, no, snowmaking duh !

If your parking lots are so far out Sno why not use something more like a magic carpet? Like a wide one with a covered roof and a grippy surface for shoes and ski boots. It wouldn't need to be continuous all the way. It could be broken into parts if it crosses roads. If it's not really that far than.....toughen up kid! Your 17 for crying out loud. I bet your hands are so soft! Like a babies butt sort of soft.

I actually like walking before and after a big day of adrenalin fueled exercise. It sort of loosens me up and helps me simulate back into the normality of the "real" world and general population.

Also it would help to know where most of your day ticket sales are coming from. At Windham are most sold to people staying the night or just day trippers from NYC? I think that totally shapes what your goals and developments are. As in, does it make sense to try and create more of a full weekend or even more of a full vacation type destination or should you just focus on your real estate market (if there is one) or keep your focus on the day tripper?

My thought is that of the 4 Catskill mountains, Windham has the biggest bed base and attracts the most overnight visitors.  I think it can support a large hotel and base village.  The reason for the Cabriolet is because the parking would be a half mile away and while you might be fine walking that distance in the morning and afternoon, a family with 3 little kids sure as heck won't.  Easy for a family of 5 to get in a cabriolet car, hard for the parents to carry their gear, their kids, and their kids gear that distance.

Legit response and reasoning imo.

So your idea is to create a more attractive resort with more attractions so people stay longer than just a day. I think this makes sense for Windham.

Looking at the lift system I think I would change it a little.

They do get plenty of day trippers and I believe that's still the majority of what they get, but they get far more overnight visitors than their neighbors.  They also tend to attract families more than Hunter.  They have a very strong ski school as it gets a lot of positive reviews.  Families like on mountain lodging and indoor waterparks, which is why I think it's a good idea.  The Cabriolet idea is to make it possible to build additional lodging without harming the experience for daytrippers.

snoloco wrote

They do get plenty of day trippers andI believe  that's still the majority of what they get, but they get far more overnight visitors than their neighbors.  They also tend to attract families more than Hunter.  They have a very strong ski school.  Part of the reason I got to the level I'm at now because I took a lot of private lessons there.  Families like on mountain lodging and indoor waterparks, which is why I think it's a good idea.  The Cabriolet idea is to make it possible to build additional lodging without harming the experience for daytrippers.

Ya. If you really want to attract families that stay a few nights and spend money you want to create lots of fun alternative activities. I get that. Looking at the trail map it's a pretty well laid out ski area, or it is at least for families and the tourist skier.

I would shorten the Wheelchair chair to stop at where that traversing green circle cat track trail cuts through creating the line between Upper and Lower WC. No need to make expert skiers and riders continue down through those flats. those sure don't look like blues below there to me. Solid greens it looks like from photos. Maybe make lift C a fixed grip and take out the other two chairs that go to the same place and replace em with a 6-pack. I would also thin out some glades and maybe make a narrow and natural trail for experts off of WC as well. The bowl off of East Peak below the top of the Wanderer trail looks like a good spot for some glading.

If I was managing the area and proposing upgrades the indoor water park sounds like a good idea to create that all around package you are talking about. I have a kid so I get this.

What other activities could you create to attract families?

An ice skating rink? An indoor climbing wall/gym? Zip Lines?

What about a huge playground for kids. I mean like ridiculously cool, think Disneyland cool. Whistler does stuff like this all around their mountain and it goes over huge with kids.

Another aspect is that even though it's a family resort Mom and Dad want to break away a little and escape still. What about an on mountain dining, adult beverage place? Something somewhere up high on the mountain with killer views.

I would try to create an atmosphere that is elegant and not intrusive to the outdoor setting that I would want my mountain to still have. Don't trash it Jersey style like Mountain Creek if you no what I mean.

The only lift upgrades they need are to make the F-Lift triple a 6-pack bubble and add a load carpet to the C-Lift to speed it up.   The HSQ would stay as a backup.  Same arrangement as Mount Snow.  

The Wheelchair lift was actually already shortened.  It used to start at the main base, but was shortened to begin where it does now around when the HSQ went in.  I think that lift is fine as is, especially with the new Windfall intermediate trail.  It doesn't need to be shortened again.

They already have pretty big bar that the recently renovated for adults to hang out and drink. There is also the Windham Adventure Park which has tubing, zipline, ropes course, and at one point had a kid's snowmobile track (not sure if it's there still).  I'd like to add alpine slide served by the C-Lift for the summer and expand the bike park.

snoloco wrote

The only lift upgrades they need are to make the F-Lift triple a 6-pack bubble and add a load carpet to the C-Lift to speed it up.   The HSQ would stay as a backup.  Same arrangement as Mount Snow.  

The Wheelchair lift was actually already shortened.  It used to start at the main base, but was shortened to begin where it does now around when the HSQ went in.  I think that lift is fine as is, especially with the new Windfall intermediate trail.  It doesn't need to be shortened again.

They already have pretty big bar that the recently renovated for adults to hang out and drink. There is also the Windham Adventure Park which has tubing, zipline, ropes course, and at one point had a kid's snowmobile track (not sure if it's there still).  I'd like to add alpine slide served by the C-Lift for the summer and expand the bike park.

But some of us want something different than what YOU think is best. This is where you go wrong with playing ski area planner. It's not about Sno, it's about how to create the best experience for your customers.

As an expert skier I don't want to ski the flats. I just want to get back on a HS-chair and lap the steeper terrain. That's why an upgrade for the WC-chair imho would be sweet and it doesn't need to be as long as it is now either.

Lets say I'm also an expert skiing Dad with a less experienced skiing family. My wife and kids want groomers but if the mountain doesn't have some glades and natural type terrain I'm not going to take them there. I would try to have some diversity to your terrain options. Don't destroy all of the character turning people like us off from your mountain. That would be foolish imo.

As far as on mountain adulting goes, some of us like options and we like having options up high with different atmospheres than what I imagine the tubing area lounge provides. I was just in Telluride and there are so many options around the mountain for that it's awesome. I used to not care about that sort of thing but now being older I find that when on vacation I really enjoy being able to tour around and stop in at different places to enjoy a beverage or two. It makes a shitty snow day really fun. Think sun decks and live music with girls in ski pants and bikini tops laying out catching rays. The smell of freshly grilled burgers and bbq wafting up under a popular chairlift. Ski areas make WAY more money in their food and beverage department than they do on lift ticket sales.

If you really want to be a successful business person Sno you might want to try and think outside of your personal box.

OMG I owe you beerz bro.

I can use this link anytime now.

RA's Argument for Diversity

I may just retire now.

Two clappy guys:

Windham is already a big groomer mountain and they get less than 100 inches of snow a yearso natural trails will never hold snow well.  They have a couple that are seldom open, but may have gotten snowmaking.  I don't know, I haven't skied there this year and won't because they're done for the season.  They already have one glade and I could see them adding quite a bit more.  Glades hold snow better than trails do.

The Wheelchair lift is the only way to ski Windfall without skating and if it's shortened, it's not going to be possible to ski Windfall from it, putting more people on the summit lifts.  I guess you could add a mid load if you really wanted, but that will mean more stops and slows.  The "flats" aren't really that long or flat.  They're intermediate cruisers.  I know because I have over 50 days there.

But what you think is intermediate cruising is boring to me. those look like green runs imo and I don't think I could get enough speed to even make what I would call a legit turn down there. But maybe you are right. Maybe it's fine the way it is. But being the more expert chair it would be nice if it were a HSQ maybe? I can't say for sure, I don't ski there.

Maybe add one really narrow, twisting, and steep old school trail. A narrow one would hold snow alright. Then you could justify adding snowmaking to the other trails that don't have sm or as much character. One cool and funky old school trail would be a really nice addition to your trail network as well as including some well thought out gladed terrain.

One of the best parts about growing up is that you find out that you don't have the whole world figured out and you sometimes need to stop and listen to others. It's really the only way to learn shit. Another thing is that if you ever get an opportunity to sit at a table for planning you will likely have a lot of people with different ideas, some of those ideas you didn't think of are likely really good. It's in your best interests to be agreeable, a good listener, and a reasonable person if you want to see your goals come to fruition.

The three most recent trail additions are narrow and twisty, but have snowmaking and are groomed daily.  Windham isn't a very steep mountain, so the only way to have anything steep is to go directly down the fall line.  Maybe the area between Why Not and Wanderer could get another trail, but it isn't a favorable exposure, so it would need snowmaking.

The way I see it is that some mountains serve a defined sector of the market and only that sector, Windham being families and intermediate skiers, MRG being a throwback style experience with all natural snow, no grooming, and old low capacity lifts with Long waits, but no one on the trails.  Mountains like that are pretty much set in their ways and won't be serving another sector of the market, but can serve their own sector better.  Windham is never going to be a big tree skiing mountain because they get what like 100 inches of snow a year?  MRG will never be a groomer mountain with lots of snowmaking and heated bubble lifts.

Other mountains serve a more diverse crowd.  Gore, Killington, Mount Snow, and Tremblant come to mind here.  They have lots of terrain for different types of skiers and attract them all.  They may need to optimize how they serve their different crowds, but need something for everyone.  For example, Gore shouldn't have a bunch of glades and natural trails on the lowest elevation on the mountain, but having them on the upper mountain makes a lot of sense and should be expanded, or they should make their relatively new  HSQ serve more than 2 trails.

snoloco wrote

  For example, Gore shouldn't have a bunch of glades and natural trails on the lowest elevation on the mountain, but having them on the upper mountain makes a lot of sense and should be expanded,

There is a reason for this. Take a look around at any east coast mountain you're at and the deciduous tree growth stops well below the Sno approved glade zone

But they don't have to serve only one sector. Why not try to have a more broad appeal? One natural trail is really going to get you all butt hurt? Does that idea make you twitch since it's so unagreeable with your personal prejiduce.


Would the costs of maintaining one natural trail be very much? I bet you could get local volunteers to trim it for you. Even if it's only open every year on average for say...4 weeks it might be worth incorporating. Maybe you could even market it as the most challenging trail in all of the Cats? That kind of marketing works bud. I was once told by a ski business marketing professor that Jackson Hole was the most visited ski area in America.......once. Do you know why? Because everyone wants to go so they can talk about it but most of them don't go back. We called that the water cooler effect. Just a thought.

Again I wouldn't know for sure, but these are the kinds of discussions you would encounter during a planning process.

Now....what about those on mountain bars and eateries? Eh? It could be bad ass and I don't think you can claim that you have experience with this experience.

Don't try to beat the other guy (Plattekill) at his game.  They get more natural snow, are steeper with no runout, and have a clientele that likes that kind of terrain.  They will always have the most challenging terrain in the Catskills (Hunter West is steeper, but mostly groomed, so not as technical).  I don't want Windham to put Plattekill out of business and I'm sure no one else on here does.

Windham already has a mid mountain lodge called the Wheelhouse Lodge which is at the top of the D-Lift and bottom of the East Peak Express.  I could see them adding a summit lodge,  but that's really it.  

I doubt one cool and funky trail would put Plattekill out of business. If it literally costs nothing to maintain....why the heck not?

Why are you so hell bent on limiting and compartmentalizing your market. Why not have a broader appeal if it's literally no skin off your back.

Um, yes it does.  You have to mow and trim it every year.  You'd be spending money on something that won't necessarily bring any more people in (expert skiers wanting natural terrain go to Plattekill anyways), and you have something that you're clientele won't appreciate.

If they've added snowmaking to Upper Wipeout and Wayout, they've got 100% coverage.  I enjoyed skiing those trails as natural trails, but I'd rather have them open consistently and in better condition.  There are these short trails between Wraparound and Warpath called Waltz, Wizard, and Wrangler, but they are short enough to point a ground gun in from each side and push out the piles.

Damn Warp!  To think all you and I ever wanted was a leg rest while riding under the Mighty Titus cloud...... My mind would have exploded thinking about a warm bubble chair in the cold Franklin county air!