Lift Tickets and the Cost of Skiing

Colorado still gets more natural snow than anyone in the east, plus they don't get any r*in to wash it away and it rarely gets above freezing.  That results in the snowpack being much thicker during the season.  In the east you can get 2 feet of snow one week and have temps in the single digits and teens and the next week get 2 inches of r*in and temps in the 50's and 60's.  That can wash all two feet of snow down the mountain.

Hey Raising Arizona,

I replied yesterday but, not sure if the post took or not since I can't seem to find it.  One word about Plattekill "Incredible".

We were happy with the mountain, more than happy. The people were great, the skiing and riding fantastic, and the options off the top varied (when you add the woods) so it seems so much bigger just minus the vertical. That's OK by me since I am 46 now :) still thinking i am in my 20's.    We are gearing up now in our hotel (suites in Margetville - a great town too) to head back and get some more turns in.

My wife  Alicia was deeply impressed with the mountain too and the fact that we could leave our kids to hang in the lodge while we took some turns with patrol David Nelson there - was a bonus.   Reminiscent of Mad River in so many ways.

We hit up some of the ungroomed runs and some of the woods - but, it was kind of heavy so we mainly stayed front side (heck - nobody was there!).

I got a surprise from one of the guys on this blog ML242 (Matt) who recognized us from our video blog. I was hoping to hit some of the other side with him - a 20 minute hike - but, with the kids at that time I couldn't head over with him - was hoping to catch some video of his making turns. His blog on Katahdin was totally amazing!  We are hoping to move to Maine next year - and he is right - even for Mainers it's like 2 days drive. Just kidding but, it's on my bucket list to hit that up with a guide at some point.


The snow was great, people were great and so worth every nickle. Hands down the best mountain in the Catskills.

snoloco wrote

Colorado still gets more natural snow than anyone in the east, plus they don't get any r*in to wash it away and it rarely gets above freezing.  That results in the snowpack being much thicker during the season.  In the east you can get 2 feet of snow one week and have temps in the single digits and teens and the next week get 2 inches of r*in and temps in the 50's and 60's.  That can wash all two feet of snow down the mountain.  At places further south such as Mountain Creek, you also have a constant freeze thaw of 40 degree highs and 20 degree lows which means the primary surface is boilerplate ice ground up by the groomers.  These things just don't happen in the west.

Jay peak claims 355 inches a year average.(some years way more) That is higher than most areas in colorado. IF YOU BELIEVE they get 355. We've had this discussion before. Again, even with occasional thaws and rain the mansfield stake maintains a snow cover all winter long. Then you can add in snowmaking on top of it. Look at how much stowe spends in snow making.

If it's 40 degrees, it's not boiler plate. If you go night skiing after it was 40 and it's 20 then yes you'll get ice obviously especially if it hasn't snowed naturally in a long time. Also, the upper 30s to near 40 is actually the normal/high low for the sierra nevada mountain chain and ice is not a big problem there due to tremendous natural snowfall.(kirkwoood/lake tahoe area)

I heard Win Smith at Sugarbush say a few years ago that they average 17 rain/freeze/thaw events in a season. This is not a knock on the Bush, just the reality of even being in northern VT. That means in a 5 month season, these events happen almost 3 times a month. That's crazy. In Colorado, at elevation, it may rain on the slopes once or twice a season at worst. I've never had rain out on a trip there. My buddies were at Vail a few years back and got soaked, so they had terrible luck on a once a year event. I have had terrible conditions out west. Low tide shark fin man made snow crap. Stuff happens. The biggest difference besides the lack of rain is the humidity. High humidity here compresses the snows and f's it up a little each day.

I know that you won't listen to me, a meteorologist, or anyone else's opinion but that is what I've observed from a lifetime of skiing. Hope you get some good turns and stop complaining all the time. It's skiing, it's actually pretty fun.

ml242 wrote

I heard Win Smith at Sugarbush say a few years ago that they average 17 rain/freeze/thaw events in a season. This is not a knock on the Bush, just the reality of even being in northern VT. That means in a 5 month season, these events happen almost 3 times a month. That's crazy. In Colorado, at elevation, it may rain on the slopes once or twice a season at worst. I've never had rain out on a trip there. My buddies were at Vail a few years back and got soaked, so they had terrible luck on a once a year event. I have had terrible conditions out west. Low tide shark fin man made snow crap. Stuff happens. The biggest difference besides the lack of rain is the humidity. High humidity here compresses the snows and f's it up a little each day.

I know that you won't listen to me, a meteorologist, or anyone else's opinion but that is what I've observed from a lifetime of skiing. Hope you get some good turns and stop complaining all the time. It's skiing, it's actually pretty fun.

It's pretty humid in the pnw as well. In the sierra nevada and pnw, it gets above freezing all the time and it can rain.
Again, yes frequent rain/freezing rain/sleet events are another reason the east doesn't compare. I agree, but that really has nothing to with width of trail having to be narrow for pow which is what coach z is trying to call me an idiot over.

What I find freaking amazing is how PowPussie is so down on tree skiing and posts those wonderful western powder shots like he's actually been there.
You can tell he has never been there. You go to Alto or Snowbird on a powder day, the line for first ride is horrendous. If you don't get up early, the trails (if they weren't groomed out) are all tracked out within an hour. Then you go to the bowls if they haven't baked out and then - guess what, your in the trees skiing whats left. If all you do is ski the marked trails you spend the rest of your day busting chopped up crud where as if you were not scared to hike or go into the woods, you'd be still having a powder day.  

This is what you most likely to see after an hour or two on a powder day if you don't head back into the "dangerous" terrain



You have to push the envelope a little to keep getting pow out there as in this pic, but look out into the basin - all cut up.


We all know you are clueless - all you have is a computer screen to look at and no real life experience.

True that. I spent a season at Tahoe a few years ago. One weekend in February is rained pretty much 3 days straight at lodge level and about half way up on the north lake. I dont think thats a rare event either. Sierra cement mixer for sure. It was wet and gross and sticky.

I'm not sure the trail width thing is the issue. I think it more depends on the particular geography of the mountain. I rode Kirkwood many times and they have wide open bowls that are pretty much always steep and deep. But when I went to north lake I usually hit Sugarbowl. Most of their terrain gets lots of cross wind and is basically wide open hard pack. (I LOVE wide open west coast hard pack. You can CRUISE that stuff.)
But both powder and ice/hardpack are there outside the low, tight deciduous forests of the upper Appalachians.

Tahoe can be glop, teeth chattering frozen, mash potatoes or heaven - it's a crap shoot. I would never spend my money to travel there and ski, I have no problem letting clients pay for me to go there.

PeeTex wrote

Tahoe can be glop, teeth chattering frozen, mash potatoes or heaven - it's a crap shoot. I would never spend my money to travel there and ski, I have no problem letting clients pay for me to go there.

Yeah, California is cool, but, generally, the snow quality sucks. The only time I have been able to ski powder there is during and immediately after a storm. Amazing how quickly it turns to gank. Explains why, when I first went there, I saw maybe ten mono boarders during the week. Today, of course, it's snowboarders.

But, I will never go all the way to Whistler, either. Talk about a crap shoot. Awesome place, incredible terrain, but, you can be stuck in rain, drizzle, and fog for days. Hey, if I want that, I'll go to Vermont.

Yeah no reason to pay $$ for a special trip to Tahoe unless you are out there for something else. Totally inconsistent. But I am pretty sure it can rain at 7k feet in the Rockies too. It may be rarer but it can happen. (Though I would probably most likely someday fly to SFO just to drive out to Kirkwood. Something about that place is special to me. It kinda gets in your blood.)

But I will say you can  get decent value out there if you are stuck living in the Bay area and need to make Tahoe home. Unless you HAVE to hit Heavenly or Northstar, you can easily get in a solid day for <$75. Part of the reason I liked Sugarbowl...I think I averaged $48/day there. Same with Alpine Meadows which now gets packaged in with Squaw Valley. And the ski ghetto at South Lake is epic, a private room for $35/night is not hard to find. When I went to North Lake I usually just stayed at Auburn or Reno where you can find some cheap rooms in the $50 price range too. Not as good but ok. Though the $4.05/gal 87 octane back then was rough.

But you can't really do that anywhere on the east coast except maybe at Killington. You are generally stuck with on mountain lodging unless you get lucky and nail one of the few hundred off site rooms. The concentration of options there makes it a good value. Like how a "restaurant row" lowers prices across the board (but attracts crowds.)

ml242 wrote

I heard Win Smith at Sugarbush say a few years ago that they average 17 rain/freeze/thaw events in a season. This is not a knock on the Bush, just the reality of even being in northern VT. That means in a 5 month season, these events happen almost 3 times a month. That's crazy.

If that is Sugarbush in northern Vermont, then imagine all the r*in events that a place further south like MC would get.

i'm with the narrow trail crowd. all my  favorite trails on the east coast are narrow, if trials at all. look no further then the Rumor at gore,wide open.when is that trail any good? i'v seen it closed the day after a storm because all the powder blew into the woods.

PeeTex wrote

What I find freaking amazing is how PowPussie is so down on tree skiing and posts those wonderful western powder shots like he's actually been there.
You can tell he has never been there. You go to Alto or Snowbird on a powder day, the line for first ride is horrendous. If you don't get up early, the trails (if they weren't groomed out) are all tracked out within an hour. Then you go to the bowls if they haven't baked out and then - guess what, your in the trees skiing whats left. If all you do is ski the marked trails you spend the rest of your day busting chopped up crud where as if you were not scared to hike or go into the woods, you'd be still having a powder day.  

This is what you most likely to see after an hour or two on a powder day if you don't head back into the "dangerous" terrain



You have to push the envelope a little to keep getting pow out there as in this pic, but look out into the basin - all cut up.


We all know you are clueless - all you have is a computer screen to look at and no real life experience.

I lived in Utah Einstein...holy god...

Yeah like trails on major ec resorts don't get tracked out in an hour? You got no clue dog. There's places like wolf creek where you can find pow DAYS after a storm still on trails.

sig wrote

i'm with the narrow trail crowd. all my  favorite trails on the east coast are narrow, if trials at all. look no further then the Rumor at gore,wide open.when is that trail any good? i'v seen it closed the day after a storm because all the powder blew into the woods.

Have you even skied a powder bowl in deep untracked powderl? Just curious.

Common sense tells you a wider trail will have more pow left over for longer. Just imagine if the alta crowd hit up magic...there'd be nothing left in 5 minutes.

So should alta make narrow trails?

Benny Profane wrote

PeeTex wrote

Tahoe can be glop, teeth chattering frozen, mash potatoes or heaven - it's a crap shoot. I would never spend my money to travel there and ski, I have no problem letting clients pay for me to go there.

Yeah, California is cool, but, generally, the snow quality sucks. The only time I have been able to ski powder there is during and immediately after a storm. Amazing how quickly it turns to gank. Explains why, when I first went there, I saw maybe ten mono boarders during the week. Today, of course, it's snowboarders.

But, I will never go all the way to Whistler, either. Talk about a crap shoot. Awesome place, incredible terrain, but, you can be stuck in rain, drizzle, and fog for days. Hey, if I want that, I'll go to Vermont.

It's called sierra cement for a reason. That being said, it can also be dryer snow. They get more dryer snow days in the pnw and kirkwood then we get over here.

yes i have. had 9 days at alta, 1 snowbird and 8 or 9 days of sierra cement at squaw. i get what you are saying. alta
was some of the greatest skiing i have ever done. on the east coast i personally enjoy the narrow trails. sheltered from the wind.places like MR were designed around where snow accumulates. we don't compare size wise to out west. those bowls are huge. that is why there more powder.

PowderAssassin wrote

I lived in Utah Einstein...holy god...

Yeah like trails on major ec resorts don't get tracked out in an hour? You got no clue dog. There's places like wolf creek where you can find pow DAYS after a storm still on trails.

Well you didn't get out much. Did they ship you to NJ in that shipping container you live in?

There can easily be powder for days after a storm at the resorts in Utah, but not on the trails and not in the bowls. Even at Powder Mtn you have to go exploring in the woods several days after a dump. But I guess you wouldn't know that. And to say Snowbird or Alta don't get wind, wind blown slabs and icy spots is ludicrous - shows you have never skied these places. You are more full of shit than a Christmas turkey.

snoloco wrote

Colorado still gets more natural snow than anyone in the east, plus they don't get any r*in to wash it away and it rarely gets above freezing.  That results in the snowpack being much thicker during the season.  In the east you can get 2 feet of snow one week and have temps in the single digits and teens and the next week get 2 inches of r*in and temps in the 50's and 60's.  That can wash all two feet of snow down the mountain.  At places further south such as Mountain Creek, you also have a constant freeze thaw of 40 degree highs and 20 degree lows which means the primary surface is boilerplate ice ground up by the groomers.  These things just don't happen in the west.

Not all areas in Colorado get more snow than places like Jay Peak. I'm pretty sure Keystones advertised average is somewhere around 230 inches a year. Crested Butte sees a lot of seasons with totals close to that as well. Strangely just up the road from the Butte at Irwin Lake Lodge they average 600 inches. Those two mountains sit in donut holes, Telluride often is in the same boat. MF cycles happen out west too, I have seen boilerplate like conditions for 4 weeks at Jackson.

On the Cali snow......I love me some cement snow! I enjoy it much more than that Colorado 2%. It sticks to the steeps. I have had many days in Colorado skiing super deep over the head blower but the primary surface of contact was frozen hard pack and moguls you couldn't see. I'm not a fan of those conditions.

thanks PeeTex for taking up for me while I was skiing.  Logic and facts clearly don't mean anything to PowAss.  It's really clear that he is just making $hit up.  Lived in Utah once he says

My take is that we just ignore him altogether he will go back to his moms basement and Ieave us alone.

Coach Z wrote

My take is that we just ignore him altogether he will go back to his moms basement and Ieave us alone.

Good idea