Mad River Glen Should...

I'm a long-time skier and snowboarder; while it may have been true, eons ago, that the snowboarder bans at many resorts were based on, to be kind, "culture clash" -- this is no longer the case.  There are a few mountains that simply don't make sense for snowboarding:  Mad River Glen and Alta are foremost on that list.  There are so many ski areas that will be happy to have the boarders' business; I truly believe it would not be as enjoyable an experience to have boarders at either of those two areas.  I make an annual pilgrimage to Snowbird to board the powder, and usually take a day or so out to ski at Alta.  Similarly, nearby Killington offers more than enough terrain to satisfy any boarder -- let's just let MRG be MRG.

yeah... MRG snowboard ban sucks..
I could ride circles around some of those guys hacking through the woods - I have tele'd there but not good enough to really hit the woods...

Kills me to see myself excluded from such an awesome place because of how i choose to slide down the hill..
and to see all my friends go and i cannot..

But - it's owned by people that don't want snowboarders around for whatever reason they choose..
We get excluded from that club...   But to be honest..  I'd rather not be at a place that is exclusionary - I find some of the people there super pompous about some things...  my buddy took a shuttle over from Sugarbush and was walking up with his snowboard to meet us a happy hour and he actually caught shti from some of the people there... Some pretty nasty comments..  So there are some real anti-snowboarding jerks there no matter what anyone says..

So I take my teleing to Sugarbush now  - whatever...  

Harvey44 wrote

Mad River Glen Should...

just encourage people to shut up and live it's anti-snowboard existence without having it constantly rubbed in our face...
tough to not respond to some of the comments...  sorry..

If people would just enjoy the place and stop with all crap - it would be a lot cooler... imho

I can't remember the last time I read every post in a seven-page thread on any forum, so nice work everyone. I haven't been on here in a little while. It's good to have time to be back.

First off, welcome to the forum, Eric. I can't express enough how valuable my experience in talking with you, writing that piece about the terrain park, and eventually connecting with ESWA has been.

Some comments regarding posts throughout the thread as I remember them:

1. The trough urinal is essential. The day when I grew up enough to just go for it instead of peeing in one of the stalls was a big day in my skiing career.

2. Harv's post about why people disrespect each other was very well-said.

3. Regarding the perceived attitude at MRG, I must say that when I was younger (I'm 21 now), before I ever skied there, I was reasonably intimidated by what the experience might be like. I've discovered, though, in countless visits since my first one at age 13, that the people you encounter at the actual place are incredible. On a good day, the lodge can be packed with people from all different backgrounds. Families with multiple children will go out of their way to offer up a chair or two so you can boot up. Dedicated local shredders will, if the time is right and they like you, ski with you for a few runs and show you around and maybe even buy you a beer. It's true that if you respect the place, it will respect you. It's even more important that if you respect the humans there, they will respect you.

4. Just a shout-out regarding skill level. I think we all agree that you can never stop improving at skiing. I consider myself an expert skier. There's nothing at MRG that I wouldn't ski, but there are certainly many who ski certain parts better than me. I took a lesson there with my dad a few years back to improve my bump game. Our instructor, Ed, was fabulous and I credit a lot of the improvements I've made in my technique over the last four years to his pointers that I've kept focus on since that lesson.

5. I have plenty of snowboarder friends. It's generally a bummer to be watching a storm on NOAA and be set to pull the trigger on MRG, only to end up at Jay because one person in the group has no choice. That being said, I do believe the snow conditions and the perfect moguls fields, the likes of which I have experienced nowhere else, are at least partially preserved by the snowboarding ban and for that reason, I support it. No disrespect intended toward either side of the debate.

dmc_hunter wrote

So there are some real anti-snowboarding jerks there no matter what anyone says..

Without a doubt. And there are anti-snowboarding jerks at every other ski area in the country.

I do get disappointed when shareholders defend the ban with ad hominim attacks against all snow boarders. Bad skiers do just as bad things to the snow. There really isn't any other reason besides preserving history, culture, and tradition. Those are legit reasons. Those that put down snowboarders or that say boarders suck or whatever get no respect from me and I can certainly see that hostile attitude at MRG... but then again I can't think of many major ski areas I've been to when I haven't heard an off handed rude and obnoxious snowboarding comment...

Sorry, not sorry. I love the ban. Snowboards would be annoying at MRG.

<insert my many reasons why I STILL don't love snowboarding, particularly in the east>

BUT, good thing they're all welcome to buy tickets at 99.999 percent of all resorts. I don't see why everyone has to provide the same experience. And, when I do see snowboarders at MRG they're usually given bronx cheers but it's in good fun. If anyone really was given a hard time, I would guess that they overreacted / couldn't take a joke - and that's when things got nasty.

I ran into a splitboarder last year and encouraged him to keep going to the summit so he could get the good stuff, rather than just go down where it was convenient. The poaching thing Burton did was great for their sport and MRG. If any splitboarders want to meet me for first tracks, I'd be happy to share some turns. But do I want them riding the lifts, never!

Besides, they're always welcome to try skis or tele sticks to see how the other half lives - so I just don't feel like there's an apartheid system. Snowboarding is a choice. Maybe if they hiked for turns once they'd want to try two sticks because the terrain is obviously that great (for skiers, only).

riverc0il wrote

Without a doubt. And there are anti-snowboarding jerks at every other ski area in the country.

I do get disappointed when shareholders defend the ban with ad hominim attacks against all snow boarders. Bad skiers do just as bad things to the snow. There really isn't any other reason besides preserving history, culture, and tradition. Those are legit reasons. Those that put down snowboarders or that say boarders suck or whatever get no respect from me and I can certainly see that hostile attitude at MRG... but then again I can't think of many major ski areas I've been to when I haven't heard an off handed rude and obnoxious snowboarding comment...

I certainly don't think snowboarders "suck" any more than skiers or are in any way less skilled than their skiing counterparts, but I do think there is at least an inkling of a practical reason for the ban.

The bumps there really are better than anywhere else I've skied, and I think the skiers-only policy is a contributing factor. Some might argue that mountains like Whiteface, Gore, Killington, Sugarbush, etc. aren't fair reference points since their inferior bumps could certainly be attributed to a higher percentage of mediocre skiers fumbling their way down mogul runs. Even Jay, though, which has historically (though less so every year) hosted a similar crowd to MRG, can't boast such perfect bump runs.

When I say perfect, I mean that you can be skiing a zipper line, miss one turn, and recover easily because there's another zipper line waiting for you 4 feet to the right. Vertically, the bumps are the right distance to work whatever speed you prefer: they are fast enough to really rip, but close enough together that you can still ski cleanly without spending too much time in the fall line. The troughs don't get overly pitted and they're rarely icy.

The formation of such good mogul fields is a delicate process. I would wager that the first 3-4 weeks of lift operation at MRG have a huge impact on the nature of the moguls for most of the season. Even when they get erased by a massive dump, things start to track out according to the original troughs. During this formation period, if you think about the fundamentals of skiing vs. snowboarding, turn shapes are not the same. In the beginning, both disciplines make turns too wide to affect mogul formation. As things get tracked out and then really-really-tracked-out, both disciplines start making shorter turns. A good skier makes rounded pivot motion, driving his or her skis into the snow and keeping control with the knees. A snowboarder, seeking to make turns of the same radius, is more limited in motion and at least somewhat more bound to follow the sidecut arc of his or her board. This results in a slightly longer period in the fall line and a slightly sharper cut at the beginning of the next turn. I think this is noticeable even in snowboarders of the highest skill-level, and I honestly do not mean to insult them. Apply that motion, however, to the formation of moguls, and you get sets with slightly longer, straighter troughs and the rhythm just isn't quite right.

Though I've never met a snowboarder who would prefer to ride established moguls over a lack thereof, I've seen plenty of situations where, for whatever reason, a snowboarder has to ride a mogul field. This would be pretty common at MRG since all expert-level terrain is ungroomed. Even snowboarders who are pretty solid in the bumps get tossed here and there, slide some turns excessively, and again, make different turn shapes than skiers. I think this does lead to a quicker deterioration of an established, clean bump line.

I know this sounds like a lot of BS. It's my own personal observation. It's not science and it could be wrong. It's still my primary reason for supporting the ban and I wish I could be more convincing in my insistence that I mean no personal insult to any snowboarder.

Most snowboarders do not enjoy alpine skier created bumps...
Skiers turn different...  In fact tele skiers turn different as well and can make bumps different as compared to regular alpine skier generated bumps..

When I'm in bumps on a board or tele - i stay on top of the bump..  And avoid the trough at all cost..

That being said- I've seen some crappy skiers stumbling in bumps at MRG...  
And if I was allowed to ride MRG - I'd stay in the woods - if forced onto bumps I'd stay to the side out of the zipper line..

ml242 wrote

'd be happy to share some turns. But do I want them riding the lifts, never!

You can keep that crappy old - long line - single chair...  I'm good with that..

dmc_hunter wrote

You can keep that crappy old - long line - single chair...  I'm good with that..

Exactly.

By the way I have ruined my fair share of mogul lines at MRG. Maybe I should be banned.

Dmc - unfortunately a lot of the woods lines are kind of bumped out now. Still worth hitting after a fresh snow, but there are just so many more people going in death of fresh that the trails seem like the new woods everywhere.

x10003q wrote

dmc_hunter wrote

You can keep that crappy old - long line - single chair...  I'm good with that..

Exactly.

By the way I have ruined my fair share of mogul lines at MRG. Maybe I should be banned.

haha.. OK..  Let me make some calls...  

Tele turns mess up bumps too...  Nobody EVER calls that out..

dmc_hunter wrote

Alpine turns mess up bumps too...  Nobody EVER calls that out..

Fixed it for ya.

bumps mess up skiiing

Harvey44 wrote

dmc_hunter wrote

Alpine turns mess up bumps too...  Nobody EVER calls that out..

Fixed it for ya.

yeah... there's a whole lot of people on various sliding devices that a messing up bump skier lines...  
Snowboarders get the blame..  :)

I'm not saying that tele skiers mess bumps up per say..   Only that the lines are different from alpine mogul skiers...

I've been to MRG..  And I've scraped surfaces(traditionally blamed on snowboarders)....  I've found strange bump lines(again - usually blamed on snowboarders)...  Collisions....  

And not a snowboarder in sight...

campgottagopee wrote

bumps mess up skiiing

I'm already a mess....

I strongly disagree with MRG having better bumps than other mountains. MRG bumps get wrecked by bad skiers all the time. The lines can be good but often not. That is why MRG is fun, because it is challenging. I hands down 100% disagree that MRG has better bumps than most other mountains.

I do think MRG has better bumps than a lot of high volume resorts that attract a lot of less proficient skiers. But that isn't because of snowboarders, that is because the caliber of skier is so much higher. But comparing MRG to places like Smuggs, Jay, Stowe, Bush, Cannon, etc... I don't buy it. I RARELY find the BEST mogul lines at MRG. Perhaps it is all of those tele skiers....



At best, even if you want to argue the perspective that MRG has the best bumps, you can't peg that exclusively only lack of snowboarders... you have to admit that MRG has a higher caliber of skier skill than the big resorts. Though I still stand by my opinions that A) MRG attracts a LOT of hack bumpers (my first time at MRG was when I was still learning bumps, I sucked at them 10 years ago) and B) MRG really doesn't have the best bump lines (but that isn't why I go there).

Skiing at Mad River is how you and the skier before you left it...Chute is arguably the best bump run in the east
MRG is the closest you will get to lift served back country skiing and you have to love how much attention this VERMONT ski area gets on NYSKIBLOG

Minimal snowmaking and grooming and a go where you want mentality...I'll Keep skiing there!  If you don't like it go somewhere else. Weeeeeeeee

riverc0il wrote

MRG really doesn't have the best bump lines (but that isn't why I go there).

I (used to) go there for the woods...  If I wanted bumps I'd go to Kmart for the zipper lines...

dmc_hunter wrote

I (used to) go there for the woods...  If I wanted bumps I'd go to Kmart for the zipper lines...

Well, I will just repeat myself: there are so many woods lines that are really one and done, or should be, that now get hammered and lack the flow they used to. This is not an mrg thing. It just sucks when you can't find a rhythm because the snow has been sloughed off all winter into horizontal slabs that just face you with nothing in between. A snowboarder may even have an advantage in that terrain.

One thing I love about MRG is the way they've done the regeneration zones to let trees fill in again over the years. The Glades (the trail) actually skis better than it did ten years ago. I just wish you could also rope off sections of the woods between storms until they could really fill in again and have that be respected because often skiers just charge in when it's not ready and then it takes that much longer to go.

This also happened on Paradise a few years ago after a landslide, some a-hole skiers (red sox fans) skied the top and it took until what seemed like march for it to be safe on the environment for it to be open to the public. That's just bad form and very selfish.

Anyway, time to get planning next years adventures!