NY State Land: Rules vs Traditional Uses

Came across this video of a truck driving on the Crane Pond Road...



For anyone who' s not familiar the road was designated as wilderness several years ago but had been used by motorized vehicles for years before that by locals to drive to Crane Pond. The DEC put a monster boulder at the start of the road and some PO'd locals lifted it with a big earth mover and drove it to Albany and dropped it on the Governor's front lawn, or something similar.

Since then it seems the DEC has allowed motorized vehicle to use the road but is not maintaining it, hence the mess.

There are lots of gray areas like this in the Daks. I know in the Siamese hunters use wagon to bring in their stuff in the fall (100% legal I believe) and cut and maintain their own trails - a gray area.

Then you've got Adirondack Powder Skiers who want rules changed to accommodate a new sport that didn't really exist when the rules were written.

What have you seen in this regard in Adks and/or Cats?

And...how should the rules be applied?

Regarding the rules of state land usage:

Strict enforcement of the rules, no changes

Strict enforcement, regular reviews to consider change

Keep it as it is, with things kind of loose

Other option, state below

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Harv,

Welcome to "The People's Republic of The State of New York", ADKR's not enabled to comment, only to live and work around it. (The Blue Line)  Just sayin'.

Ski you soon.

The problem is people with influence don't appear to have stepped off the concrete. This article is an example and equates glade trimming  to clearing summits.

 “It sounds like something that’s akin to clearing summits for vistas,” -


http://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2013/05/skiers-want-to-maintain-glades-on-lyon-mt.html

Harvey wrote

   The DEC put a monster boulder at the start of the road and some PO'd locals lifted it with a big earth mover and drove it to Albany and dropped it on the Governor's front lawn, or something similar.<br/><br/>

 

That is hilarious!!!!

I voted keep it the way it is, kinda loose.

Guys need to get back into the woods w/ stuff....I say let 'em. We're gonna do it anyway

LOL Camp I told that story primarily for your benefit.

This thread is really misnamed as in the case of glading, it's really more of a new use. Sorta.

OK - I'm going to play devil's advocate here about keeping things 'loose'...

Vehicles in the wilderness really ticks some people off, some are ok with it and some are for it.  Whoopee.  It's honestly not that hard to enforce.  Motor vehicles are big and make lots of noise.  They usually park if they are camping.  If NYS really wanted they could play hard ball and start towing them out of there.  Instead they took the passive approach (and guess what, the rangers still use Crane Pond Rd.)

Now here's something that happens regularly and it pisses almost everybody off, and the rules seem to be a bit 'loose'.

Leaving shit in the woods.  I don't care what it is.  Old boats, household trash, beer cans, coolers, tarps, whatever-the-fuck.

The law is carry-in, carry-out.  If you expended the effort to get it out there, you can do the same to get it back.

This is one that is hard to enforce.  It's often hard to catch people leaving something behind.  And it's easy to deny in most cases.  Rangers and assistants certainly don't want to spend their limited time dragging garbage out of the wilderness areas.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I don't think you can say it's OK to drive on Crane Pond Rd and clear 'illegal' trails and then bitch about other people not following a rule that is practically impossible to enforce.  If you keep it 'loose', certain people will continue to push the boundaries.  If there are real penalties, then maybe they will think twice.  I feel like these cases give people the idea the can do whatever the fuck they want on state land.

The other one that causes a big stink is the snowshoe/ski rule in the High Peaks.  To those that don't like it, I say head for the Whites.  High Peaks are crowded enough, good riddance.

Signed,
Disgruntled NYS Tax Payer

MikeK wrote

OK - I'm going to play devil's advocate here about keeping things 'loose'...

What a shocker

Harvey wrote

LOL Camp I told that story primarily for your benefit.

This thread is really misnamed as in the case of glading, it's really more of a new use. Sorta.

I wish I was with them, what a blast they must have had. I can picture the entire scene.


I'd say glading is a "new use" ..... way back when there was a TON of logging going on, so skiers would ski old logging roads and have a blast. I know we did as kids on Eleventh Mt. Now days those roads are all but gone. I'd like to see DEC get together with these various skier groups and work something out. It would really put the BC skiing in the Dacks on the map.

campgottagopee wrote

It would really put the BC skiing in the Dacks on the map.

I'd rather see it stay off the maps. Today there are marvelous places to ski BC in the Daks, Slides which are naturally cleared and with pitches from mild to extreme. The are wonderful glades with little to no underbrush. You just have to know where to look. I discover new stuff every year.

I am not for letting any Yahoo with a chainsaw loose in the woods. What a mess that would be. I am not for letting cars and trucks into wilderness areas whether or not there was a road there (you want a bunch of trucks around the campsites at Marcy Dam - there is an access road there?).

PeeTex wrote

 

I am not for letting any Yahoo with a chainsaw loose in the woods.  

Hmmmmm, last I knew that wasn't up to you

campgottagopee wrote

PeeTex wrote

 

I am not for letting any Yahoo with a chainsaw loose in the woods.  

Hmmmmm, last I knew that wasn't up to you

Never said it was up to me, just said I was not in favor of that. I suppose you are. Hmmmm, I think me and a bunch of my buddies are gonna clear cut a 50' "glade" right down the front shoulder of Giant. Guess that makes a lot of sense to you.

campgottagopee wrote

PeeTex wrote

 

I am not for letting any Yahoo with a chainsaw loose in the woods.  

Hmmmmm, last I knew that wasn't up to you

Ha!  It surely is if you're a NYS resident and it's on state land.

If it's your own land, have at it!

Here's my point ---- these "laws", and those who enforce them NEED to have wiggle room. Why?? For the law abiding citizen. You can make all the stict laws you want, NOTHING will change. Who it will hurt is the guy who does the right thing by having him pay for permits, taxes, trail fees or whatever. The "wackoos" with chainsaws wont be any less, the A-hole dumping garbage in the woods wont stop, the ungrateful hiker who destroys trail signs wont stop ... so on and so on. It's just like these SILLY new gun laws ..... are they stopping/slowing down crime??? NOPE!!! It's hurting the law abiding citizen, hell you can't even buy a .22 shells anymore becuae you can't find them. If you do find them they are 10X what they used to cost.


My Dad always taught me that all lock does is keep an honest man honest.....a thief will ALWAYS get what he wants!!

PeeTex wrote

campgottagopee wrote

PeeTex wrote

 

I am not for letting any Yahoo with a chainsaw loose in the woods.  

Hmmmmm, last I knew that wasn't up to you

Never said it was up to me, just said I was not in favor of that. I suppose you are. Hmmmm, I think me and a bunch of my buddies are gonna clear cut a 50' "glade" right down the front shoulder of Giant. Guess that makes a lot of sense to you.

bwahahahah, just messing with ya

You're an easy target

. So you are for skiing the stuff that has been gladed?  If so, you should reframe from skiing them based on your belief   You don't want trucks on a trail cause it is wilderness and they are not allowed.  Well those glades that people pruned for you are illegal.   One way or the other which is it.  

I want it loose for things that I like to do and strict enforcement for everybody else.

campgottagopee wrote

Here's my point ---- these "laws", and those who enforce them NEED to have wiggle room. Why?? For the law abiding citizen. You can make all the stict laws you want, NOTHING will change. Who it will hurt is the guy who does the right thing by having him pay for permits, taxes, trail fees or whatever. The "wackoos" with chainsaws wont be any less, the A-hole dumping garbage in the woods wont stop, the ungrateful hiker who destroys trail signs wont stop ... so on and so on. It's just like these SILLY new gun laws ..... are they stopping/slowing down crime??? NOPE!!! It's hurting the law abiding citizen, hell you can't even buy a .22 shells anymore becuae you can't find them. If you do find them they are 10X what they used to cost.


My Dad always taught me that all lock does is keep an honest man honest.....a thief will ALWAYS get what he wants!!

Without trying to provoke, I don't get what you are saying. We should not have laws, we should not enforce laws, we should selectively enforce laws based on some criteria or we only enforce laws when people other than you violate them?

PeeTex wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Here's my point ---- these "laws", and those who enforce them NEED to have wiggle room. Why?? For the law abiding citizen. You can make all the stict laws you want, NOTHING will change. Who it will hurt is the guy who does the right thing by having him pay for permits, taxes, trail fees or whatever. The "wackoos" with chainsaws wont be any less, the A-hole dumping garbage in the woods wont stop, the ungrateful hiker who destroys trail signs wont stop ... so on and so on. It's just like these SILLY new gun laws ..... are they stopping/slowing down crime??? NOPE!!! It's hurting the law abiding citizen, hell you can't even buy a .22 shells anymore becuae you can't find them. If you do find them they are 10X what they used to cost.


My Dad always taught me that all lock does is keep an honest man honest.....a thief will ALWAYS get what he wants!!

Without trying to provoke, I don't get what you are saying. We should not have laws, we should not enforce laws, we should selectively enforce laws based on some criteria or we only enforce laws when people other than you violate them?

Uhm, no. I'm saying leave the gray area...it works...it's worked for years and will continue to do so. More laws don't solve a damn thing!

Got it now??

Don't need to trim on state land and haven't skied on glades others have trimmed except for the designated hiking trails. The glades I look for and ski are open hardwoods which have not been cut in a very long time, if you don't go too high where the vegetation is thick than you can find great runs, you just have to know where to look. I do keep a glade trimmed on private land but my agreement with the owner is not to cut anything over 1.5" and to only use pruning shears, loppers or a foldable hand saw.

Some blame the internet for making the info more available.  And now those type of people show up more.

And some people deface trail signs or campsite designations to try to discourage others from going out there.  They claim they are helping the areas regain their wildness, but really they are no different than any of the others.

I fail to see how 'wiggle' room gives the right message.  Seems to me you give some people an inch and they'll take a mile.

And to me the same people who are driving trucks into the wilderness are the same people who are trashing campsites or defacing signs to keep the woods private for them.

And keeping motors OUT OF the wilderness areas are written into the designation.  If we ignore that, then wtf, just ignore it all together and pave a road out there.

What the state should have done is reclassified that land as Wild Forest and kept the road.  Not all of Pharaoh, just that little bit.  It would have pissed some conservationists off but it wouldn't have made the DEC look like assholes for calling it Wilderness and failing to enforce the laws they are supposed uphold.