NY Taxpayer Ski Free Day?

If the state feels that it is in the voters best interest to lose money for a free ski day (or a free golf day, or a free state park day), then they are perfectly within their rights to do that. They already have weekends where you can go fishing for free without a license.

But, if the state government ever said "We are offering a free ski day to all New Yorkers at a cost of $X", I can see not only private ski areas complaining, but people saying "why would you spend that money on a bunch of rich people (skiers) who can already afford it, and not feeding hungry people starving in Rochester and Buffalo?"

I don't know how many people would vote on that issue alone, but it seems pretty heartless of you to compare your recreational activity to people trying to live.

I agree with you for once ( well maybe more than once ) Matt.
The ski areas are designed to get people with money to visit parts of the state with no money. If you roll up the tax income equation I bet there is little cost to the state for those tickets. If they convert just 1% of those free tickets into a new skier, everybody wins. The resorts further south will likely sell tickets to that guy and probably ski lessons and rentals. Some ski shop will eventually sell him gear and he will eat in restaurants in the localities. Eventually he will buy some property and build a little cabin. He may even start a ski blog....

PeeTex wrote

I agree with you for once ( well maybe more than once ) Matt.

It's a Christmas miracle!

mattchuck2 wrote

I don't know how many people would vote on that issue alone, but it seems pretty heartless of you to compare your recreational activity to people trying to live.

You're right that a pretty heartless thing to say. A very bad comparison.  All I was trying to say is that I really don't care about,how other resorts feel about ORDA offering one  free day. Personally, I'd like to see ORDA buy up more areas across NY.

I get that the various private/corporate owned ski areas over the years aren't pleased with the state subsidizing ORDA, but at the same time Belleayre, Gore and Whiteface existed as ski areas before virtually most if not all of the mid to larger size resorts opened in New York State. The competitive environment was known to them prior to making their choices.

Frankly Im fine with ORDA and having ski areas that are slope-side lodging free, and mind you thats a huge reason why they continued to need subsidizing relative to their size because they lack the huge profit and foot traffic generator that is lodging.


(Edit: Mattchuck2 this isn't a reply to you, I accidentally hit the reply button on one of your posts)

evantful wrote

Frankly Im fine with ORDA and having ski areas that are slope-side lodging free, and mind you thats a huge reason why they continued to need subsidizing relative to their size because they lack the huge profit and foot traffic generator that is lodging.

Not sure what the Belleayre situation is lately, but Gore has the ability to do a ton of slopeside lodging at the Ski Bowl through Front Street Development. I just don't think the demand is there (or at least the demand for the properties they're trying to sell first to get funding for the rest).

We skiers like to think that we represent a ton of people in the state, but we really don't.

And the whole point of this thread was so that we as skiers could at least make an attempt to represent a larger group. Like I said, I am middle class, and I think a lot of us here are. Golf doesn't represent a huge group either but some of the poorest people I know play it.

PeeTex wrote

I believe he gets a few perks to support Platty.

This is not a correct analysis.

PeeTex wrote

It's humorous, those on this forum, the most liberal are quick to turn on the welfare state when it's in thier own self interest.

Not sure what this means.

Ethan Snow wrote

And the whole point of this thread was so that we as skiers could at least make an attempt to represent a larger group. Like I said, I am middle class, and I think a lot of us here are. Golf doesn't represent a huge group either but some of the poorest people I know play it.

I agree with the sentiment. In the past, I remember a lot more promotion of the sport in general. When I was a kid, Albany used to shut down a couple of blocks downtown and cover the blacktop with snow to ski on. I haven't lived in the capital district in a long time. Do they still do that? I think anything to promote the sport in general and to provide an inexpensive venue to try it out is a good thing.

Harvey wrote

PeeTex wrote

I believe he gets a few perks to support Platty.

This is not a correct analysis.

PeeTex wrote

It's humorous, those on this forum, the most liberal are quick to turn on the welfare state when it's in thier own self interest.

Not sure what this means.

Do you ever get a free lift ticket or a chair up before the general public?

The crankiness of someone like Laszlo is understandable:

"I am paying taxes to subsidize a competitor that can operate at a loss indefinitely and they are using my money to undercut my price."

While you may have less sympathy for Hunter or Windham, they can make the same argument.

I interpreted this as support Laz's position that ORDA is unfair competition.

PeeTex wrote

Harv's position on this is not completely unbiased, I believe he gets a few perks to support Platty.

PeeTex, I don't really think there are any legitimate "perks" involved. Its just smoke up his ass.  I used to participate in the smoke blowing as well, but after a while it gets old. Now I just lay low, ski with my friends, and try not have any close encounters with faculty.

PT your if P then Q is not accurate. Maybe come to Plattekill on Jan 8 for that beer.

In ORDA's defense they have played much more fairly with Plattekill than the Belle did under DEC/Tony Lanza. In his final year before getting canned Tony dumped 17,000 free tickets on the market. That is a crushing blow, especially when many have to drive past Pine Hill to get to Roxbury.  Now ORDA is extremely tight with freebies at Belle. This is in response to the hard feelings created by Tony.

I understand why Tony did it, but it didn't make it right.

From Laz's POV, every spring, if the winter was average or decent, he pulls out what he can, and scours the northeast for used guns, hoses and gear to make small improvements.  (Most of the decent guns and equipment from Big Tupper are at Plattekill.)

Belle on the other hand, almost regardless of the season, gets somewhere in the range of a million to fix, replace and improve.  It's hard not to resent that, when you are subsidizing yourself.

I understand that POV, if that makes me biased, I'm ok with that.

Wonder how many other states have state owned ski areas.

NH has state run ski areas, or at least did have them.  Winter Park was state run, until they farmed it out to Intrawest.

Harvey wrote

In ORDA's defense they have played much more fairly with Plattekill than the Belle did under DEC/Tony Lanza. In his final year before getting canned Tony dumped 17,000 free tickets on the market. That is a crushing blow, especially when many have to drive past Pine Hill to get to Roxbury.  Now ORDA is extremely tight with freebies at Belle. This is in response to the hard feelings created by Tony.

As I mentioned in the other thread, pricing well below marginal cost to eliminate competition, like the DEC did with Belleayre tickets is what is known as predatory pricing, which is illegal for a private business to do.  ORDA seems to be running Belleayre much more like a private firm would, and that means it's fair competition with the other areas.

Thanks for the invite - I'll try to make it although the 8th is a Sunday and I just can't see driving all that way unless they have a nice dump Saturday night. I might wait for one of their powder dazes openings.

Buy one get one free coupons for Plattekill are all over the place in books sold by high school students, boyscouts etc. That means that a $60 full day lift ticket is now being offered at a bargain of essentially $30 which is way below the industry standard.

Is this considered predatory pricing?

I've always kind of wondered how Platttekill manages to get their name in these books considering how primitive their marketing is.   It surprises me even more that Laz approves of these bogos.

When I followed Glade's Facebook page, he posted a report that was supposed to be Plattekill, but they didn't accept the BOGO, so he went to Belleayre instead.  Apparently, they bait n switched him 3 times and didn't accept BOGO coupons.  The fine print said "valid with the purchase of a full day ticket, cannot be combined with other offers".  It was late in the season last year and they only had 2 trails open, so they dropped the price, and tried to say it was "another offer".  Personally, I wouldn't consider dropping the price to reflect having only 2 trails open a "deal".

If Glade's story happens frequently, then they're using the BOGO coupons to get people there, and then bait-n-switch and not accept them, and hope they pay up instead of going to Belleayre.  That's just a bait-n-switch, not predatory pricing.

If not, and they actually do accept them, it's not necessarily predatory pricing.  That's when you price below marginal cost with the intent of using it to eliminate competition.  It is illegal to do this.  It is perfectly legal to price below costs on a certain product to get people in the door to spend more money on other things.  For example, pricing late season lift tickets below cost to get people to the mountain to buy food and beer, or even better, upgrade them to a season pass.

What the DEC was doing with Belleayre, I would definitely consider predatory pricing.  They literally flooded the market with free, or close to free tickets, operating at massive losses to try and get people to go there instead of Hunter or Windham.  They could indefinitely operate at a loss, while the privately run mountains would go out of business if they did it for too many years.

That is not a bait n switch. Bait n switch is a well established tactic that is illegal. You shouldn't slander people so casually.
I'm sure Laz would sell the guy two tickets for $60. If he reduces his price cause he has less terrain open and is selling tickets for $35 or $40 or whatever, that is clearly a separate offer. My ten year old has the reading comprehension to understand that. If you show up that day, you just have to choose between the two offers. Two for sixty is still better then one for forty so I don't see what there is to complain about.

I am very familiar with the story you are talking about. Laz was pissed, but I do understand why he wouldn't accept the BOGO. Lift tickets were $35 that day, and I don't know any mountains that accept BOGOs on top of discounted tickets. As far as Glade getting bait and switched three times, I can not speak for that. It sounds like a story to me, or he was trying to get a deal on top of a deal which is obnoxious.  I have friends who use the Buy 1 get 1 coupons for Plattekill now and then and we've never had any problems as long as you buy one full price ticket.