ORDA has "ongoing fiscal challenges" according to this article

I'm sorry I'm back so late in the conversation. Its interesting to hear about how ok it is to take a loss with government money. I alwasy hear people complaining about how government doesn't know how to run business. Or they throw so much money way. So I dont know. One thing I do know is ORDAS mission statement says its goal is to be at no cost to the tax payer. Or maybe that's Belleayre's mission statement.  Both organizations go hand in hand.

We dont know about this years loss yet. Perhaps the numbers will be a gain. But surely more transparency would be helpful to see which areas of operation could be strengthened. Nothing wrong with finding that out. I'm not sure how anyone thought I was advocating for the wealthy to own our parks and recreation.

Sophia belated welcome to the forums.

I admit that when I look at ORDA's financials I just don't know what I'm looking at.  Jeff's got financially background/training so we sometimes look to him for "translations."

I'm curious - what do you think is the proper course for ORDA financially?  How would you run Whiteface, Gore, Bell and the other venues?

It seems to be generally agreed that the "venues" (non-ski area ORDA venues) aren't profitable, if looked at in isolation. If that is true would you close them?  Would you close a ski area that didn't break even in a year (like last year), or do layoffs, reduce snowmaking?

I certainly don't have the answers. Just wondering about your view.

Harvey44 wrote

I certainly don't have the answers. Just wondering about your view.

Do you ask this question given what ORDA's mandate is? This is listed on the home page of the ORDA website and the mission statement and the performance report to it from last year is here: Mission Statement

Certainly the answer you get should be predicated on the restrictions ORDA must operate under.

The only question I can answer with certainty is "How would I run ORDA?", Badly I am sure...

I seem to have lost my entire response here. ugh! Big bummer

I was asked how would I run the Mountains I think. And I wrote that I would have each dept put together a Project proposal and procurement request. I noted that Belleayre does this already. What the problem is, is that the various depts need a better understanding of what their part in the whole costs. Some dept's make money others need funding. In order to understand this, all departments need to be available to speak with each other about documents they have available. Sounds simple and should be so. But try getting info out of other depts. Or ask to to submit a document according to the rules and regulations.

Where are the rules and regulations? You'd think H.R. would know. You'd think the Agency page for Authorities would know. In fact start asking and you discover most government workers know very little about the rule or where to find the rules. I cant speak for Gore or Whiteface but belleayre could improve its transparency. Its a very big secret from bottom to top.  So the reason we dont have Authorities following the rules is, because in fact they dont know the rules. Or when you do find a rule, there might be a rule at the end of the rule, thats been inserted by who-knows-who that reads, anything of the above rules dont need to be followed. When diNapoli has his public meeting on this, I'll probably go and present the rule that says that. That one has to go!

Most depts have an idea on how they'd do things better. They just dont know how to put together a proper business proposal. A ski resort is a business. So it can be run like a small business if properly explained to its supervisors. I know theres money to be made in ski resorts since centerplate has been so happy to take over so much of the money making depts. Why are NYkers losing out on that income? Its like the places we could see a profit are being given to private enterprise when in fact why not run the place ourselves? I'll stop here, lest I lose this thought and end up losing this entire post. .

sophia wrote

 I know theres money to be made in ski resorts since centerplate has been so happy to take over so much of the money making depts. Why are NYkers losing out on that income? Its like the places we could see a profit are being given to private enterprise when in fact why not run the place ourselves? I'll stop here, lest I lose this thought and end up losing this entire post. .

Centerplate pays ORDA to run the food concession thereby reducing the risk to ORDA. ORDA feels that they are not good at the food business and/or they can make more money by outsourcing. There is nothing unique or underhanded about this type of arrangement. It is probably a good business decision.

My wife and I have been belle passholders for the last 3 years and have bought the "all area" for 2013-14. We started coming up here 4 years ago when I started teaching her to ski and bought a house in Margaretville 3 years ago. In my limited observations of pre and post ORDA, I have noticed (in a very short time) a change in attitude at the Belle. Previously it appeared (to me) that the area was being run like someone had won it in a lottery and was sharing it with friends. The lifts would open between, around, somewhere near 8:30-9am. There seemed to be frequent breakdowns with the lifts. There did not seem to be a logical "plan of attack" in snowmaking (early season). This season (under ORDA) the lifts open on time and they run. There seemed to be a methodical approach in snowmaking early season. (they waited to open the Tomahawk area and concentrated on the trails in front of the lodge gradually fanning out) They (from what I have heard) all but eliminated freebies. The main thing I see as a detriment is the scanning of lift tickets (a necessary evil) which slows the lines down and frustrates the lifties (many passes don't scan). In all there is not a lot on the surface different but the little changes in the approach (I believe) will lead to profitability. One of the previous posters alluded to it being a flat boring area. Well it is. Ski there enough and there is a lot of fun terrain to be found in good snow years. They have a really good ski school. The area has a VERY devout following. It is not MRG south (plattekill) nor is it Hunter (thank god) It is a friendly family-oriented area that is very important to a very depressed area of the state. They need to continue to develop the area (adding Highmount and putting in some lodging would be a good start) The dollars spent would be well worth it if it helps revive the Rt 28 corridor.

brn2skifst wrote

My wife and I have been belle passholders for the last 3 years and have bought the "all area" for 2013-14. We started coming up here 4 years ago when I started teaching her to ski and bought a house in Margaretville 3 years ago. In my limited observations of pre and post ORDA, I have noticed (in a very short time) a change in attitude at the Belle. Previously it appeared (to me) that the area was being run like someone had won it in a lottery and was sharing it with friends. The lifts would open between, around, somewhere near 8:30-9am. There seemed to be frequent breakdowns with the lifts. There did not seem to be a logical "plan of attack" in snowmaking (early season). This season (under ORDA) the lifts open on time and they run. There seemed to be a methodical approach in snowmaking early season. (they waited to open the Tomahawk area and concentrated on the trails in front of the lodge gradually fanning out) They (from what I have heard) all but eliminated freebies. The main thing I see as a detriment is the scanning of lift tickets (a necessary evil) which slows the lines down and frustrates the lifties (many passes don't scan). In all there is not a lot on the surface different but the little changes in the approach (I believe) will lead to profitability. One of the previous posters alluded to it being a flat boring area. Well it is. Ski there enough and there is a lot of fun terrain to be found in good snow years. They have a really good ski school. The area has a VERY devout following. It is not MRG south (plattekill) nor is it Hunter (thank god) It is a friendly family-oriented area that is very important to a very depressed area of the state. They need to continue to develop the area (adding Highmount and putting in some lodging would be a good start) The dollars spent would be well worth it if it helps revive the Rt 28 corridor.

Well stated.

One thing I would add is that the route 28 corridor already seems to be going under a resurgence. I can't fully give Belleayre credit, but the diner that had been closed for years is now packed on every drive by. In fact, almost all of the restaurants are up and running. I stopped by Hickory last night and felt lucky to get a spot. But outside of Margo's Hungarian, there are fewer and fewer eyesores left (the doll house is one). I have noticed a trend that after major natural disasters many areas put the rescue packages to great use. The rebuilding of bridges in the corridor and improvements to people's homes have left the valley looking a lot better, maybe even wealthier?

I am not saying that Irene wasn't a terrible storm, but the trend is evident in New Orleans, and I think the Rockaways... but it's early there.

Anyway, this new 3-pass is pretty exciting stuff, and I think they'll get a huge benefit in terms of visits from the offering at all three.

Does anyone know if ORDA offers a free beginner group lesson with a lift ticket and/or rental? I have worked at mountains that do and it is a great way to seed the industry.

Belleayre offers a lift lesson and rental at a cut rate price.

DackerDan wrote

Harvey44 wrote

I certainly don't have the answers. Just wondering about your view.

Do you ask this question given what ORDA's mandate is? This is listed on the home page of the ORDA website and the mission statement and the performance report to it from last year is here: Mission Statement

Certainly the answer you get should be predicated on the restrictions ORDA must operate under.

The only question I can answer with certainty is "How would I run ORDA?", Badly I am sure...

Compare the mission statement in the link above to what was in the 2004 annual report:

     "Established by the New York State legislature (Article 8, Title 28, NYS Public Authorities Law) on July 3, 1981, ORDA was given the mandate to manage and promote the sports facilities used to host the 1980 Olympic Winter Games."

Yes, there is a new mission statement out. Its still not overly inspiring.

I'm a Catskill park person. So keep that in mind. I'm pro my own mountain. I figure someone has to be.

sophia wrote

Yes, there is a new mission statement out. Its still not overly inspiring.

I'm a Catskill park person. So keep that in mind. I'm pro my own mountain. I figure someone has to be.

I don' t know what you mean by "own mountain".

Pete is right to point out the mission creep, but it seems to be what the state want ORDA to do.

I'm not a Gore Whiteface person. When I read this forum its mostly about those two mountains. So Belleayre is where I live. And as with all three mountains, we all own them. I claim Belleayre as my own.

I don't understand how my question to sophia relates to ORDA's mission statement. Just wondering what if anything she would do differently.

With regard to ORDA's evolving mission statement - I don't have an issue with an organizations mission statement changing. Times change, if an organization is to remain vital or relevant it may have to adapt.

If I was a Belle passholder (and I will be soon) I'd be in favor of the handoff from the DEC to ORDA. Gore and Whiteface have had considerably more investment in infrastructure than Bell has had.

Very interested to hear more on the ground feedback from Bell stakeholders on any differences at the mountain this year under ORDA.

Harv, ORDA's mission statement admittedly doesn't relate to your question to Sophia. But this thread had diverged in a couple different directions, so I couldn't help monkeywrenching.

I am also interested to hear what Sophia would do different.  Insofar as ORDA losing money, it should be pointed out that the state used to appropriate way more money to ORDA back in the day, to the tune of tens of millions dollars.  Thus today they're paying more of their own way, thru trail pass revenue and etc., than they did 25 years ago.  And this year again, her home mountain will have money specifically earmarked for it in the state appropriation.  I understand why, but I wish that would happen for my mountain.

Harvey44 wrote

I don't understand how my question to sophia relates to ORDA's mission statement. Just wondering what if anything she would do differently.

Harv,
Guess I started the shift by asking you the question "Do you ask this question given what ORDA's mandate is? "
I gather from your response that the answer could go anywhere.

I think there needs to be a new thread. I'm pretty sure I tried to answer what I would do with running the mountains. Now there is also this, "Very interested to hear more on the ground feedback from Bell stakeholders on any differences at the mountain this year under ORDA."

I can most definitely tell you what is different. For the last several years the workers at Belleayre have been essentially in a panic over what will happen to their jobs, pay and benefits. This is no small matter. Lets take for example what the pay rate is. Under the DEC, a Rec Aide 4, which is what a ticket seller / Guest service worker is, gets 15 dollars per hour at top pay. Under ORDA the Pay is 7. 40 cents per hour, unless you are returning which might get you up to a Labor 2, grade 8. 8.92 cents per hour.

So over the last two years as adjustments were made first by freezing wages, then by letting people go and re-hiring them under a lesser pay scale, we've seen the workers take a cut for some up to 30%. That's a big hit. Someone at the Mountain did some math and discovered the takeover cost the local community 500,000 dollars loss in pay. This is money people do not have to spend. So we are ever more at the mercy of local tourism. And work more hours at less pay. Keep in mind the average Belleayre worker travels 30 miles each day to get to the job. Even a one dollar boost in pay would cover the cost of gas.

I do know ORDA workers at Gore have a sign out in front that announces no contract for 3 1/2 years. I find this very disturbing since I care for my community a great deal. I thought at one time the workers were CSEA. The only representation the CSEA now does is bring a delegation of 1,000 people up to Gore to ski.

I did hear several posters here take note about how the rt 28 corridor looks so much better these days. Which is interesting because the locals have been talking about how run down we now look. There is less money in our area over the last few years. Yes perhaps the diner was busy the weekend you were here. But in fact you were here during a busy weekend and when you left, you left with the other visitors as well. In fact the diner is NOT busy most of the time. Ive seen it go out of business multiple times.

On the other hand, I've looked up Ted Blazers Pay. He has received pay raises over the last 5 years and now makes 180,000 per year. That's not a problem unless the workers are taking pay cuts.

I'm not here whining or complaining. I'm simply telling you what I see happening. I will be happy to participate in this forum. I just need to get a better handle on how the posting works and who the members are. Thank you all for being so kind and welcoming.

sophia wrote

I can most definitely tell you what is different. For the last several years the workers at Belleayre have been essentially in a panic over what will happen to their jobs, pay and benefits. This is no small matter. Lets take for example what the pay rate is. Under the DEC, a Rec Aide 4, which is what a ticket seller / Guest service worker is, gets 15 dollars per hour at top pay. Under ORDA the Pay is 7. 40 cents per hour, unless you are returning which might get you up to a Labor 2, grade 8. 8.92 cents per hour.

I have yet to travel to Belle, but hope to next season. My understanding is that the DEC was poorly running Belle and that is part of why ORDA ended up operating it. One would have to assume the DEC pay grade probably didn't properly match up with the actual work being done by employees, but that was the state mandated pay for that department. That, compounded with Belle freebies and poorly executed infrastructure might have had something to do with the state turning it over to ORDA. I have to believe the Belle communities will see a long-term financial improvement if they are patient; I know it can be difficult but it will be worth the wait. A few years ago, NYS was looking to pull quite a bit of money out of ORDA's operating budget. On paper, it seemed like a great place to save money, but once looked at from an economic impact angle, it was realized that by cutting back or dissolving ORDA in Lake Placid, the community would become depressed and start losing their winter tourism dollars that contribute to bed tax, etc. My point is, you have to look at the whole picture not just pieces. When you break it down into pieces, yeah it might look like ORDA is the "evil empire" but it does a pretty good job up in Lake Placid and from the feedback I've been hearing, Belle has a lot of promise and will just continue to get better. People don't like change...I get that, but you'll be happy with it a few years down the road, I'm sure...most people are.

Wow. If the last few posts weren't an example of how people have become accustomed to state sponsored working welfare, and then somehow feel entitled to complain about said working conditions and pay, I don't know any better. Just imagine if that taxpayer funded ski hill wasn't there. Or, better yet, go over to Plattekill and ask the ticket window person (if that isn't an anachronism in todays' digital world - a ticket seller) what he/she is making. Something tells me it isn't 15 bucks an hour. With benefits.

x10003q wrote

sophia wrote

 I know theres money to be made in ski resorts since centerplate has been so happy to take over so much of the money making depts. Why are NYkers losing out on that income? Its like the places we could see a profit are being given to private enterprise when in fact why not run the place ourselves? I'll stop here, lest I lose this thought and end up losing this entire post. .

Centerplate pays ORDA to run the food concession thereby reducing the risk to ORDA. ORDA feels that they are not good at the food business and/or they can make more money by outsourcing. There is nothing unique or underhanded about this type of arrangement. It is probably a good business decision.

The reason Orda has Centerplate handle rentals is that this way NYS does not need to invest hundreds of thousand of dollars in rental inventory - Centerplate puts in the capital and then staffs the shop and collects a profit while Orda makes no investment and gets a cut of the profits - that is a good deal for the taxpayers of NY.  Could you image if the taxpayers had to float the rentals -they would get replaced as often as my ski school uniform and that would not be good for the product on snow.

Seems like Sophia has a bit of an axe to grind about Centerplate. While we all probably frequently complain about Centerplate a little (i admit that I do at times - more bartenders please rob on busy days) Orda is way better off with Centerplate than without it.  Can Centerplate do better - sure in some areas but without them it could get really ugly.