ORDA has "ongoing fiscal challenges" according to this article

Wow. If the last few posts weren't an example of how people have become accustomed to state sponsored working welfare...

But, at the same time, wouldn't it be nice if we lived on a country that actually had good paying jobs and benefits for all workers, regardless of their profession? Seems like a lot of these arguments degrade into "well, my job sucks, I get paid like crap and don't have benefits, so you should have to live like that, too". Seems like a crappy position to hold.

Wouldn't it be nice, instead of coddling up to businesses and trying to push workers to accept ever decreasing pay, if we just, I don't know, raised the minimum wage to $15 an hour and guaranteed health care to everyone? I know, I'm a socialist, blah, blah, blah. It seems like there's no better time to do this than when corporate profits are at all time highs and businesses are just sitting on their money.

I recognize that the State is different (after all, it's our tax dollars), but I hate these "my life sucks so yours should too" arguments.

mattchuck2 wrote

Wow. If the last few posts weren't an example of how people have become accustomed to state sponsored working welfare...

But, at the same time, wouldn't it be nice if we lived on a country that actually had good paying jobs and benefits for all workers, regardless of their profession? Seems like a lot of these arguments degrade into "well, my job sucks, I get paid like crap and don't have benefits, so you should have to live like that, too". Seems like a crappy position to hold.

Wouldn't it be nice, instead of coddling up to businesses and trying to push workers to accept ever decreasing pay, if we just, I don't know, raised the minimum wage to $15 an hour and guaranteed health care to everyone? I know, I'm a socialist, blah, blah, blah. It seems like there's no better time to do this than when corporate profits are at all time highs and businesses are just sitting on their money.

I recognize that the State is different (after all, it's our tax dollars), but I hate these "my life sucks so yours should too" arguments.

Fine. You know, I'd really like to retire to a nice place that's cheaper than banker hell down here, but, every time I look at upstate NY, I'm shocked at the property taxes. There's a reason most of upstate is an economic wasteland, and, taxes are one. What corporation in it's right mind would do a start up up there? Well, there's the Foundry and other high tech stuff around Albany, but, we pay for that anyway with incentives and tax breaks, and, I'm pretty sure, stuff that fell off the table, if you know what I mean. Raising the minimum wage to that level and assuring solid benefits would just throw more dirt on the upstate grave. Hey, at least it isn't California or Illinois. Phew, those guys are really in a pickle.
And, my life doesn't suck at all, btw. I just balk at the argument that an unnecessary job in an unprofitable business paid for by my tax dollars should get double the minimum wage. Maybe it's because of that large check I mailed out to the Feds this week.

I think it's tough to make a living working at a resort.  What do people make at Killington or resorts out west?  Now Bell employees are making what Whiteface and Gore employees make.  That's tough because they built lives based on a higher level of pay.

If you let the free market determine resort wages they'll be low.  If you artificially prop up wages jobs could disappear all together.  My guess is that the only way to get wages significantly higher in the Adks and Cats would be to remove environmental restrictions, and start mining and logging etc.  IMO that would be a short term strategy.

Do you want a profitable ORDA or DEC level employee wages?  It's probably not that simple, but those two factors push in different ways.

I'm too lazy to look into this, but I wonder how much ORDA spends on employee compensation per year in comparison with how much they spend on water, electric, etc.

And I wonder how much they spend on Employees for centerplate, because the usual contractor situation is that the company bills the client (the state, in this case) for, say $30 an hour, then pays their employee $9 an hour.

There are plenty of hard working Orda workers that have toiled there for years or decades but IMO its got to be somewhere between nearly impossible to financially suicidal to try to make a living working only 4-5 months a year in the ski resort biz.  And that 4-5 months at Whiteface is only 3-4 months at Bellayre with its shorter season.  Something I learned a long time ago - the ski industy is great but it is not somewhere you can actually make a living except maybe in Aspen and even there I bet that the type of jobs that Sophia is talking about are still  making only $10 an hour or less.  Instructors in Aspen or Vail with well built up privates clientles can make a living but still have a long commute due to the cost of living there.

Matt its easy at your age to be a socialist when you don't pay to Unkle Sam in April what Harv, Benny, I and others are shelling out.  Benny has it nailed - if you raise wages and benefits too high beyond what the market would naturally be you kill the jobs and businesses that pay those wages.  

Whew!  Good thing there are no political discussions allowed in here.  Carry on.

mattchuck2 wrote

I'm too lazy to look into this, but I wonder how much ORDA spends on employee compensation per year in comparison with how much they spend on water, electric, etc.

And I wonder how much they spend on Employees for centerplate, because the usual contractor situation is that the company bills the client (the state, in this case) for, say $30 an hour, then pays their employee $9 an hour.

That is not how Centerplate's deal with Orda is structured - Centerplate pays Orda for the right to have the business, pays for capital equipment such as rental equipment, ovens etc, pays employess (and does not get reimbursed by Orda for those employees otherwise they would have more darn bartenders) and pays Orda a percentage of the total sales (not sure how much that is - if someone knows plesase add it) and centerplate keeps the rest as profit.  It is a good deal for both parties and the taxpapers of NYS.

sophia wrote

Under the DEC, a Rec Aide 4, which is what a ticket seller / Guest service worker is, gets 15 dollars per hour at top pay. Under ORDA the Pay is 7. 40 cents per hour, unless you are returning which might get you up to a Labor 2, grade 8. 8.92 cents per hour.

$15 per hour is ridiculously overpaid for a ticket seller.  The idea that a mistake should be perpetuated because it is too painful to correct is rubbish.  

Benny Profane wrote

Fine. You know, I'd really like to retire to a nice place that's cheaper than banker hell down here, but, every time I look at upstate NY, I'm shocked at the property taxes. There's a reason most of upstate is an economic wasteland, and, taxes are one. What corporation in it's right mind would do a start up up there? Well, there's the Foundry and other high tech stuff around Albany, but, we pay for that anyway with incentives and tax breaks, and, I'm pretty sure, stuff that fell off the table, if you know what I mean. Raising the minimum wage to that level and assuring solid benefits would just throw more dirt on the upstate grave. Hey, at least it isn't California or Illinois. Phew, those guys are really in a pickle.
And, my life doesn't suck at all, btw. I just balk at the argument that an unnecessary job in an unprofitable business paid for by my tax dollars should get double the minimum wage. Maybe it's because of that large check I mailed out to the Feds this week.

Taxes in NYC and Long Island are way higher than upstate, and those areas aren't "economic wastelands". So perhaps you want to rethink your high taxes=wasteland theory. I didn't mean to say that your life (specifically) sucks, I just get sick of people who make $50,000 arguing with people making $30,000 a year about what should be done with taxes and spending when someone making $5,000,000 is just sitting to the side laughing.

And the reason California is in trouble is that they passed a law that requires a 2/3 majority to raise taxes. That, combing with Prop 13, makes it really difficult to get any new revenue to pay for anything. Also, some municipalities in CA went a little crazy with their employee compensation packages - specifically with regard to health care (paying health care for the rest of someone's life even if they retire at 50, etc.)

There's obviously a balance. The problem is, right now it seems like everything is tilted against the worker and toward the investor/CEO/banker/hoarder.

Coach Z wrote

mattchuck2 wrote

I'm too lazy to look into this, but I wonder how much ORDA spends on employee compensation per year in comparison with how much they spend on water, electric, etc.

And I wonder how much they spend on Employees for centerplate, because the usual contractor situation is that the company bills the client (the state, in this case) for, say $30 an hour, then pays their employee $9 an hour.

That is not how Centerplate's deal with Orda is structured - Centerplate pays Orda for the right to have the business, pays for capital equipment such as rental equipment, ovens etc, pays employess (and does not get reimbursed by Orda for those employees otherwise they would have more darn bartenders) and pays Orda a percentage of the total sales (not sure how much that is - if someone knows plesase add it) and centerplate keeps the rest as profit.  It is a good deal for both parties and the taxpapers of NYS.

Good to know, thanks.

Coach Z wrote

Matt its easy at your age to be a socialist when you don't pay to Unkle Sam in April what Harv, Benny, I and others are shelling out.  Benny has it nailed - if you raise wages and benefits too high beyond what the market would naturally be you kill the jobs and businesses that pay those wages.

I pay taxes according to the same charts as everybody else. Okay, I might not make as much as you, Harv, and Benny, but I still pay taxes.

And how do you explain Nokia and IKEA? Profitable businesses from socialist countries that pay living wages, provide health care for al of their citizens, and offer free education up to Ph.D. if you want. High wages and benefits didn't kill those businesses.

mattchuck2 wrote

Coach Z wrote

Matt its easy at your age to be a socialist when you don't pay to Unkle Sam in April what Harv, Benny, I and others are shelling out.  Benny has it nailed - if you raise wages and benefits too high beyond what the market would naturally be you kill the jobs and businesses that pay those wages.

And how do you explain Nokia and IKEA? Profitable businesses from socialist countries that pay living wages, provide health care for al of their citizens, and offer free education up to Ph.D. if you want. High wages and benefits didn't kill those businesses.

But, as you said, those are profitable international corporations. Not a state supported unprofitable playground.

And, from what I understand, both of those companies use plenty of cheap labor in third world countries.

Noah John wrote

Whew!  Good thing there are no political discussions allowed in here.  Carry on.

Yeah, sorry... I was one of the ones who was against politics on here, mostly for this reason. I have a lot of (apparently minority) viewpoints and I get drawn in to this stuff because I like to argue. Oh well, good discussion. I'll stop now.

I vote MC2!!

mattchuck2 wrote

Yeah, sorry... I was one of the ones who was against politics on here, mostly for this reason. I have a lot of (apparently minority) viewpoints and I get drawn in to this stuff because I like to argue. Oh well, good discussion. I'll stop now.

Matt,
Gore budgeted $4.2M in personnel costs and WF $5M in 2012, Gore paid $1.2M in electric in 2011-12. Don't know what they actually paid in personnel costs.

Many seasonal employees at Gore and WF will get "laid off" at the end of the season and then collect unemployment until guiding season starts, repeat the process in the fall.

I agree with the social issues you mentioned, that's too complex a discussion for here. Suffice it to say that my opinion on how to fix that involves policies that would never get me elected to office. Until it does get fixed most of our kids will be locked into a modern day indentured servitude and of all things I feel this is the greatest tragedy of our time. Enough said.

ml242 wrote

Well stated.

One thing I would add is that the route 28 corridor already seems to be going under a resurgence. I can't fully give Belleayre credit, but the diner that had been closed for years is now packed on every drive by. In fact, almost all of the restaurants are up and running. I stopped by Hickory last night and felt lucky to get a spot. But outside of Margo's Hungarian, there are fewer and fewer eyesores left (the doll house is one). I have noticed a trend that after major natural disasters many areas put the rescue packages to great use. The rebuilding of bridges in the corridor and improvements to people's homes have left the valley looking a lot better, maybe even wealthier?

I am not saying that Irene wasn't a terrible storm, but the trend is evident in New Orleans, and I think the Rockaways... but it's early there.

Anyway, this new 3-pass is pretty exciting stuff, and I think they'll get a huge benefit in terms of visits from the offering at all three.

 
The 28 corridor you are referring to is looking much better. That "eastern" section has Woodstock and Phonnecia to keep it alive. Housing prices in Woodstock are close to double what they are in Margarteville. I was referring to the area between Fleishmans and Margaretville. It is economicaly dead. The only places that seem to do well are Oakleys and The Inn Between. Downtown Margaretville is improving though. It has been slow-go since Irene. The infusion of State $$ would, in the long run, increase tax revenue to the state. Most states throw so much money at projects that have no ROI. This is one that would.

Coach Z wrote

 (Centerplate) ... pays Orda a percentage of the total sales (not sure how much that is - if someone knows plesase add it) and centerplate keeps the rest...

15%

You must have worked and been paid wages for work in at least two calendar quarters in your base period,
     AND
You must have been paid at least $1,600 in wages in one of the calendar quarters in your base period,
     AND
The total wages paid to you in your base period must be one and one-half times your high quarter wages.

We use no more than $8,910 of your high quarter earnings to determine if you qualify. You must have earned at least half that amount ($4,455) in the other base period quarters.

If you qualify using the Basic base period, we use that period to establish your claim.    

And how many seasonal ORDA employees meet this criteria?

Sorry if this sounds political.

15% of gross sales not the net profit when you don't have to invest capital, pay for the supplies or employees is a good deal for the taxpayers of NY.  It limits the risk of bigger losses in poor snow years.  Of course it also limits the upside but my guess is the capital outlays would be the biggest issue for the NYS budgeting process.  It also allows Orda to focus on the main mission of the product out on the Mt and not have to be in other businesses like food service

I think its popular to bust on Centerplate but in general they do a pretty good job and don't get enough credit.  Now if they could only get a few more bartenders on busy days ...

BRLKED wrote

You must have worked and been paid wages for work in at least two calendar quarters in your base period,
     AND
You must have been paid at least $1,600 in wages in one of the calendar quarters in your base period,
     AND
The total wages paid to you in your base period must be one and one-half times your high quarter wages.

We use no more than $8,910 of your high quarter earnings to determine if you qualify. You must have earned at least half that amount ($4,455) in the other base period quarters.

If you qualify using the Basic base period, we use that period to establish your claim.    

And how many seasonal ORDA employees meet this criteria?

Sorry if this sounds political.

Doesn't sound political. It's factual.
You did a copy/paste from the DoL website...
So lets look at it.
If I work from Thanksgiving through the end of March I meet criteria 1.
If I get paid $8/hr I only have to work 200 hours in 12 weeks (a quarter) to meet criteria 2
Since the base period is 4 out of the last 5 quarters, all I need to do is earn another $800 in the year to meet criteria 3
so I think a lot of ORDA seasonal employees will meet the criteria.

Also - from the same website:
"You may be eligible for benefits if:

    You lost your job due to lack of work
    The temporary or seasonal employment ended "

Now maybe I didn't get something right here, but it seems rather easy. It also seems they encourage seasonal employees to file. Not saying it's right or wrong or that all ORDA employees do this, but I have been told by several that this is the MO to bridge them from ski season to guide season.