Objectivity

Not strange at all, as I’ve never made my thoughts on the subject solely about the symbol that is the flag.

JTG4eva! wrote

Not that protesting for people’s civil rights should stop, but this particular form of protest has lost it’s message among the noise.

I'd argue that the message is pretty clear. And it's gaining momentum. For a protest to amount to something you can't give up just because it gets uncomfortable - for the protestor or for onlookers. If they gave up now the actually would seem like total tools. It involves Trump because he has embroiled himself in the controversy because he's incapable of anything but being a douche. He could have nipped this all in the bud if he had the composure of an average adult human. He could have publicly expressed support for improving civil rights for everyone in our country. He could have appointed someone in his administration to take point on the issue. He could have listened, or even pretended to listen, and responded thoughtfully. If he weren't a douche. And a blatant racist.

For those who say it's not the right place or time, well of course it is. Where else would a football player get more attention than on the field during a game? And in fact if I recall correctly the first one or two times Kaepernick knelt it practically went unnoticed. What would he have accomplished if he did something off the field, on social media, or at the Walmart? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

JTG4eva! wrote

I think the Cowboys did a fine job with their demonstration last night.

You should let them know you approve. I'm sure they'll be sure to clear any future actions with you.

Sure, Billy, if I thought, said, or implied that the Cowboys, or anyone else, needed my review or approval I would!  But I didn’t....just sharing an opinion.

billyymc wrote

I'd argue that the message is pretty clear.

Agree to disagree I suppose!

Kap’s original message:  To bring light to the injustices and infringement of civil liberties inflicted upon minorities.  Great message, even if his timing was a bit suspect.  Was he more interested in getting his message, or himself, in the spotlight.....who knows?  But great, relevant message.

How many people were talking about that message this weekend?  How many teams were huddled in locker rooms away from the anthem, or locking arms on the field for that message?  From what I could see, very few.  It was mostly about respecting the flag, honoring the military, standing united against tRump....just about anything BUT Kap’s original message.

JTG4eva! wrote

just about anything BUT Kap’s original message.

You're joking, right?

That message is loud and clear. There's a fucking NYT editorial written by the guy who kneeled next to Kap:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html

How would they get that platform without the original protest?

I don't even get what your point is anymore. Kaepernick and other football players should stop because their message isn't getting out, but here you are days later still talking about their message?

You're on the wrong side on this one, bud. Still time to turn it around. Or you could just run away like someone else did.

Right on bro!

Not joking at all!  Why the heck did Eric Reid need a NYT editorial on September 25, 2017?  Because he needed to REMIND people why he and Kap took a knee in the first place!  Because the original social injustice message has been lost amongst the noise!

Listen, I’m not saying that forms of peaceful protest and calls for social change need to stop, and at least people are protesting.......something (??)......but as this article talks about (besides Kap’s lost message), the protest and move to change needs to be focused, needs to move forward.  

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2735093-have-we-lost-sight-of-what-colin-kaepernick-was-really-protesting-for

The RISE to Vote initiative mentioned in the article is a good one.  There are surely other productive avenues out there.  However, individual players, whole teams, whathaveyou....kneeling, locking arms, staying in the locker room, whatever.....to protest social injustice, or is it disrespect of the flag/country/military, or is it tRump, or what is it?  Well, the promising start to focus on changing social injustice, the original point, has little or no momentum from what Reid and Kap started.  That’s all I’m saying.

JTG4eva! wrote

, the original point, has little or no momentum from what Reid and Kap started.  That’s all I’m saying.

Nah, you're wildly off base here.

It's got momentum and it's getting stronger. Now it's spreading to other sports.

Were you one of those people who thought the ice bucket challenge was stupid? Because that worked too. Mass movements are hard. Sometimes they have a lot of momentum, sometimes they don't. Right now, this has a lot of momentum, you're claiming it doesn't, and you want them to stop anyway.

Seems like there's something you don't like about the whole exercise, but I can't put my finger on it.

If anyone thinks Kap is out of the league for his protests they are in the dark about football.  If he were any good he would be on a team.  You can rape, murder, and do just about anything as long as you are not in jail and can play you will be on a field.

Why hasn't he got a CFL job or an NFL Europe job by now? Arena league?

Honestly, I don’t care about/dislike the exercise all that much.  Personally, I will always, in addition to teaching this to my children, stand and honor the American Flag and the United States of America, with all it’s warts, during the National Anthem, with hand over heart.  Yes, I understand that those who served and died for our country did so in order that people could kneel during the National Anthem, or burn an American Flag, or exercise their right to free speech and protest in a myriad of other ways.  Of course, that doesn’t mean I have to agree with their methods, even though I may fully support their message.  It’s like a kid doing something bad to get negative attention.  I don’t think that is the best way to behave and try to get what you want.  It’s as simple as that.  All this momentum of which you speak will go nowhere if someone doesn’t turn it into concrete action for actual change.

It really is an interesting social commentary, though.

Sort of related question.....

Who here thinks Kap would have done any of this kneeling stuff if he hadn’t fallen off a cliff in 2014, but rather had followed up runs deep into the 2012 and 2013 post seasons with continued high level play, bringing the 49ers more championships, thereby remaining relevant on the football field?

Me neither......

I would think that the high profile murders of Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Eric Garner, etc.   might have affected the timing.

JTG4eva! wrote

Personally, I will always, in addition to teaching this to my children, stand and honor the American Flag and the United States of America, with all it’s warts, during the National Anthem, with hand over heart.

So will I, and expect the same from my own kids.

JTG4eva! wrote

Of course, that doesn’t mean I have to agree with their methods, even though I may fully support their message.

Agree with that as well.

<quote author="JTG4eva!">All this momentum of which you speak will go nowhere if someone doesn’t turn it into concrete action for actual change.<quote author="JTG4eva!">

Twelve years before Rosa Parks was arrested for not giving up her seat to a white man, she was ordered to board a bus by the rear door instead of the front. When she went to board in the rear the driver drove off and left her there, even though she had paid her fare. It was the same driver on the bus 12 years later who had her arrested. The Montgomery Bus Boycott lasted about a year, and while blacks gained some ground, they lost a lot more because other laws were enacted to counteract what they had gained. And simply out of habit most black people went back to sitting in the back of the bus anyway.

Societal change doesn't happen swiftly, nor in a straight line. You seem like you expect concrete action to occur when the problem isn't even widely accepted or well defined.

JTG4eva! wrote

Sort of related question.....

Who here thinks Kap would have done any of this kneeling stuff if he hadn’t fallen off a cliff in 2014, but rather had followed up runs deep into the 2012 and 2013 post seasons with continued high level play, bringing the 49ers more championships, thereby remaining relevant on the football field?

Me neither......

No idea. I don't watch football. Or an professional sports really. I find watching a bunch of highly paid whiny grown men playing a game very boring. Yes, my friends to make fun of me for it.

Well they sure have succeeded in gaining attention, lets see where it goes.

billyymc wrote

Societal change doesn't happen swiftly, nor in a straight line. You seem like you expect concrete action to occur when the problem isn't even widely accepted or well defined.

Well stated.  I know the wheels of change are slow, and concrete won’t form overnight.  However, I guess I’m just saying there has to be a next step, someone has to mix it up from here, because a shit load of bent knee arm locking in unity against tRump in the midst of a twitter war, which this past weekend in the NFL seemed to be mostly about, isn’t likely to further the cause of social change, I don’t think.

I appreciate the intelligent dialogue!

http://start.att.net/news/read/category/news/article/fox_news-judge_jeanine_pirro_nfl_players_taking_a_knee_comm-rfoxnews

Discuss.....

JTG4eva! wrote

http://start.att.net/news/read/category/news/article/fox_news-judge_jeanine_pirro_nfl_players_taking_a_knee_comm-rfoxnews

Discuss.....

No. I can't take anything out of Fox new seriously, not do I find it worthy of discussion. It's emotional, hate-backed diatribe almost without exception.

You claim to like intelligent dialogue, then you link to Jeanine Pirro?! As they say on ESPN, C'mon, man!

I also want to know why conservatives hate "political correctness", but then won't tolerate people not standing for the national anthem.

What the fuck does political correctness mean to people like you and camp? You want to be able to say the n word? Want to be able to tell racist jokes?