Park City / Canyons: 01/31 - 02/02/2016

Faster lifts, more parking, better snomaking, bigger lodges.

There will be bottlenecks and opportunities to charge the well off more to avoid them. That's life, or maybe capitalism.

It's not consistent to say you want everything bigger, faster, better, but you don't want the mountains to charge more for it.  Some of the things you take issue with are the direct result of mountains doing what you (and in fairness many others) want.

"More t-bars less lattes" Jamie Shectman from MRA. Or something close to that.

Harvey wrote

Faster lifts, more parking, better snomaking, bigger lodges....

My old boss at the reprographics shop used to say "taste for champagne, budget for 7up". Strikes a chord here.

ml242 wrote

My old boss at the reprographics shop used to say "taste for champagne, budget for 7up". Strikes a chord here.

A slight permutation of this:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/champagne_taste_on_a_beer_budget

snoloco wrote

I draw the line at 30-40 dollar parking that's somewhat close.  I've always hated parking lots that require a bus and avoid them like the plague.  The policy at all Vail mountains and many others in the west is that if you're not VIP or paying Manhattan prices for parking, you can take the bus.  There is NEVER enough capacity on any shuttle operation to handle every single person who has parked in the free lot, so there's usually a huge line at the end of the day.  Parking lots that require a lift are better, but there's probably still a huge line during peak times.

I just looked at their website. Cabriolet lot is still free. It's convenient. Of course  it fills up, but the times I've skied there I maybe had to wait two or three minutes to get on in the morning, and no wait at the end of the day.

You are awesome at talking out your ass. When you haven't been to a place, you should just STFU about it kid.

nice report and pics jeff! i remember that hike to area looking great, nice you git to hit it. unfortunately wasn't enough cover a few years ago when i was there. i still had fun

i skipped most of the sno related posts of this thread but what i find amusing is my wife and i chose pcmr for a long weekend in a poor snow year for the most of the reasons and amenities that sno hails holy - ease of access, lifts, grooming etc lol

Harvey wrote

Faster lifts, more parking, better snomaking, bigger lodges.

There will be bottlenecks and opportunities to charge the well off more to avoid them. That's life, or maybe capitalism.

It's not consistent to say you want everything bigger, faster, better, but you don't want the mountains to charge more for it.  Some of the things you take issue with are the direct result of mountains doing what you (and in fairness many others) want.

If you need to raise revenue, then raise ticket prices enough to do it.  Don't Bait-n-switch and make the experience worse for those who don't pay an extra $30 to park in the same zip code.  I will give Vail some credit for doing away with the fast tracks pay to cut the line system at PC.  That kind of business practice doesn't belong at any ski area in the world.  Killington tried to do something similar, but it failed miserably.  How would you feel if your runs were reduced while you watched people lap you while you waited in the monster lines?  I would be finding another mountain to ski at if anywhere that I had a pass at started doing that.

Hey guys,
First, thanks for all the positive comments!  Sorry I didn’t have a chance to respond to direct questions… was busy skiing and traveling.
Second, apologies for busting on Coach and Sno just a little in my posts.  It was meant in good fun and I hope it was taken that way.

Harvey wrote

What skis are you on?

Still on my K2 Sideshows, 90mm waist.  Like ‘em a lot, but I’m due for a new pair.  Then again, that’s what I said last year.

mattchuck2 wrote

Did your friends enjoy it as much as you did?

Yeah, everyone loved it.  We had 8 in our group, with a wide range of abilities.  1 or 2 of the guys are groomer / cruiser types with an 11 o’clock beer stop, lunch at 1, done at 3:30.  I’m kind of considered the crazy tele guy.  The rest of the guys fall somewhere in between and are all solid skiers (one is a former patroller, another is a lifelong WF'er), so I can usually find some sucker to drag along on one of my adventures.  We all get out early for first chair.

I think everyone really liked the variety of terrain and enjoyed exploring all the nooks and crannies.  Coach mentioned above that it looks like the connection between the 2 ski areas is pretty smooth, and he’s right.  Having both resorts on one ticket is a big plus.  Skiing both areas in one day is totally feasible.  For us it seemed to work better to shuttle to PCMR and ski back to Canyons, but it’s doable in reverse.  By catching an early shuttle you get one leg of the round-trip completed before lifts even open.

The town was cool, but it was way more built up than I think anyone expected.  To put it on a scale, Lake Placid is a village, Telluride and Steamboat are towns, and Park City is a city.  Still, everyone really enjoyed having the town close by, and we ate dinner at a different restaurant in town every night.  I think most of the guys preferred Telluride as a town over Park City, but a big part of that preference is the uniqueness of the all-night free gondi that connects town to the ski village.

snoloco wrote

 I bet the lifts stopped a lot

I don’t recall any lift stoppages.  Must have been one or two.

raisingarizona wrote

I haven't been there but from looking at the trail map it would be nice if there was a hsq serving the majority of terrain on Jupiter Peak. That zone looks fun. If I lived there I think it would get old riding the 2 or 3 lifts it takes to do that circuit.

Edit: I just looked at the trail map again and I was wrong. It looks like one lift and some short hikes to lap a good chunk of the goods.

Jupiter Peak can be accessed from either side, the pod served by the McConkey’s HSQ or the pod served by the Jupiter double.  I really enjoyed the terrain in both pods, but the Jupiter Bowl side was definitely much more old-school and backcountry-ish.  An HSQ there would definitely change that vibe for the worse.

One of the main reasons why I knew I’d have a good time at PCMR/Canyons was the double-black hike-to terrain on Jupiter, 9990, Murdock’s, etc.  Does Snowbird or Telluride have more?  Sure.  Does PCMR / Canyons have enough to challenge me on a 3-day trip?  Absolutely.  

snoloco wrote

I wouldn't pay to ski there (Park City) since everything is ridiculously overpriced because Vail's business model is to nickel and dime you in every way possible.  This means Manhattan prices for parking, 150 dollar lift tickets, fine dining prices for cafeteria food, etc.

^^Not following this.  As Billy pointed out, you can ski at PC/Canyons this Saturday for $107.  At Steamboat, it’s $149.  I take it you found your Steamboat (owned by Intrawest, also a large corporation) experience satisfactory, why the Vail hate?
And as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the cabriolet lot at Canyons is free and did not appear to fill during our stay.

snoloco wrote

Jeff mentioned in the other thread that he wouldn't pay to ski there either

Nope, never said that.

x10003q wrote

I guess you had a good time?

QFT

I think it cost 120 a day to ski at Steamboat during Christmas Week.  I thought you said that you wouldn't be skiing PC normally and went because it was free.  If you were paying, you'd have gone somewhere else.

Reason for the "Vail hate" is because they nickel and dime their guests worse than just about any other ski area operator out there.  All these people think they're getting a great deal with the Epic Pass, but they're just taking the bait and letting Vail get a hook on their wallet.  Soon, they'll be faced with the choice of paying 30-40 dollars for parking, or taking a bus to the lodge.  PC and Breck have a lift accessed parking lot that's free, so they're a bit better.  Their other mountains have free parking in another zip code.  I've never skied any one of them, but I've researched a bunch before I chose to go to Steamboat and that was the case.  

So many people take the bait that their mountains are more crowded than anyone else's, so you get less for more money.  I've heard their food prices are highway robbery as well.  Steamboat wasn't very crowded once you got away from the gondola (a crowded nightmare, take Christie to Thunderhead instead) that stopped an slowed constantly, which should never happen on any gondola anywhere.  I don't think I waited more than 5 minutes for any lift since I avoided that thing.  Vail, Breck, and Keystone were probably 20-25 minutes all day.  I'd go back to Steamboat in a heartbeat.  Aside from that awful gondola, it was perfect.

I apologize for my PC hate earlier in this thread.  I was responding to Jeff's shots at me and Coach, and intended that in the same manner that he did.

I'm sorry, I might have missed something.....Sno, you've skied Vail, Breck and Keystone?

JTG4eva! wrote

I'm sorry, I might have missed something.....Sno, you've skied Vail, Breck and Keystone?

I haven't skied them and don't plan on it.  I did research all of them extensively as they were candidates for my trip this past December.  Breck was too high elevation for first time western skiers, Keystone didn't get enough snow, and Vail didn't have enough terrain for my mom (she only skis blue groomers which meant that she wouldn't get to see the back bowl or blue sky basin).  I'd probably go back to Steamboat again for my next trip, but try to get on more of the harder terrain.  After that, I'd step it up a notch and try Snowbird.  I may end up at Big Sky if I visit Montana State anytime soon.  I told my dad that I want to visit it in the winter.

snoloco wrote

Breck was too high elevation for first time western skiers

I don't think how many times you've skied out west in the past has anything to do with how well you acclimate.  It's related to the elevation you came from, how much time you've spent up high (in the period directly before), staying hydrated/avoiding alcohol, and genetics. I think.

IMHO, I think an intermediate, blue square skier would be in heaven at Vail.  Thousands of acres of terrain for one to ski at Vail.

Marcski wrote

IMHO, I think an intermediate, blue square skier would be in heaven at Vail.  Thousands of acres of terrain for one to ski at Vail.

Vail is a freak'n blast..yeah it's pricey etc..It is one of the great ski mountains, it's real hard to say something negative about Vail when it comes to skiing.


Not everyone gets altitude sickness, especially if you are smart and go easy the first day, stay hydrated and no booze..

Glad you had a great time, this is really a great year to go out there. I too was bust'n on Z just for chuckles as well, he's a big guy - he can take it. I have given up, I'm head'n out in a few weeks. It will probably warm up to 80 out there and puke snow here - just my luck.

snoloco wrote

JTG4eva! wrote

I'm sorry, I might have missed something.....Sno, you've skied Vail, Breck and Keystone?

I haven't skied them and don't plan on it.  I did research all of them extensively as they were candidates for my trip this past December.  Breck was too high elevation for first time western skiers, Keystone didn't get enough snow, and Vail didn't have enough terrain for my mom (she only skis blue groomers which meant that she wouldn't get to see the back bowl or blue sky basin).  I'd probably go back to Steamboat again for my next trip, but try to get on more of the harder terrain.  After that, I'd step it up a notch and try Snowbird.  I may end up at Big Sky if I visit Montana State anytime soon.  I told my dad that I want to visit it in the winter.

He IS an expert research skier.

JasonWx wrote

Not everyone gets altitude sickness, especially if you are smart and go easy the first day, stay hydrated and no booze..

Not sure Sno's old man could take a day of family vacation without hittin' the sauce... just a feelin' I get...














...everytime I read his posts...

They say it takes a village to raise a child.  Well, Sno, you've come to this wacky interweb village and we'll do our best to see you are raised right!

snoloco wrote

I haven't.....I did research...

A bit of advice for you.  No amount of research you do on places you've never been is going to give you a full picture.  Circumstances and conditions vary widely, people's perceptions differ, Al Gore's internet is full of people with agendas, as well as outright wackos.  Everything you read on the internet needs to be taken with a measure of salt.  Research is great to get some background and ideas, but it sure as shit isn't going to give you enough information to make the authoritative statements and blanket generalizations you constantly make.  Relying on research to make such strong and definitive statements on places they've never been and things they've never done makes one come across as anywhere from naive to raving lunatic.  You are better than that, so reign it in a bit.  

This thread should be a perfect example of that.  You did your PCMR research, and bolstered by Coach's opinions you had a lot to say.  Turns out Jeff's trip is light years removed from everything you had to say about a place you'd never been and knew nothing about.  My question about whether you've been to Breck was rhetorical, I know you haven't.  However, your research led you to speak authoritatively about 25 minute lift lines there.  Guess what?  I HAVE skied there.....and I didn't wait in a single 25 minute lift line, nor did I have any trouble with the altitude, having hiked to 13,000 ft at Breck and A Basin, as a first time western skier.

All that I guess to say....don't believe everything you read son, and don't act like an expert on places you've never been.  Sure, share your opinions based on your research, and admit it's purely based on research.  You can do that intelligently, rather than trying to come across as an expert and looking foolish in the process.

I suppose you might wonder why this old man is blathering at me?  Fair enough!  However, you seem like a good kid, strike me as intelligent, and you ski.  I like hearing you talk about things like lifts and such, and it's nice to have your youthful exuberance around.  Want to see you succeed, but you may need to temper your communication style a bit In achieving those successes.

I think Sno has a real future in trolling ski forums...

Wow well said. Way easier to give some semi-snark, and I'm guilty too, but that ^^ is what I meant.

I too have to admit that Jeff's TR changed my view of a place I'd never been.  My impression was that PC was Utah's Stratton, and it might be, but with 22 inches of pow, it looks way more interesting than Stratton would with the same snow.  (Full disclosure I've had fun in the trees at Stratton!)

Even though there is about 3 pages of bullshit in this TR, I still think it is awesome.