Petition for ORDA to take over Big Tupper

Z wrote

There are 2 large hotel projects in process in Saranac Lake
The drive from SL to Tupper is easier than having to go all the way thru LP to get to WF

Z - if you decided to visit Saranac Lake in the winter and your choices included the World Class Olympic Mountain with a 3166 ft vertical, a gondola, a high speed lift and about 11 lifts in total or a 600 ft vertical area of green and blue trails served by a couple of double chairs - where are you heading?

FYI - those 2 hotel projects are being built in Saranac Lake with zero thought of Big Tupper since BT has been basically closed for 20 years.

Z wrote

If Tupper was revived you would see more lodging offerings in Tupper open up for sure.  Would probably be more modest in size and the cost for lodging

So a tiny ski hill miles from nowhere is going to light up hotel developers and lenders? Have you been watching the last 10 years in Tupper Lake? ACR could not find any private funding for their project. They were begging for NYS for loans. What would change for any other developer?

There are hotel/condo approvals slopeside at Gore and there is still nothing built after 10 years, but BT will garner interest?

Lots of people on this site seem to feel as though there is one specific ski experience that people want and they wouldn't settle for anything other than that. Strange, because, as the NY Ski Blog posts on the main page this year have shown, there are fun ski experiences at all types of mountains.

Personally, I think it's great that Sugarbush has MRG near it, Jackson Hole has Snow King, etc. I think Gore/Hickory used to be a good combo, too. Sometimes people like to take a weekend and do the "big resort", then check out the small local place on the way out (especially if it sets up a scenic drive home, like the one from Tupper to Long Lake to Blue Mountain Lake).

Anyway, if Big Tupper had a better lift system, upgraded snowmaking, and a revamped base lodge, there's no reason why it couldn't be at least a Plattekill level draw.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

Lots of people on this site seem to feel as though there is one specific ski experience that people want and they wouldn't settle for anything other than that. Strange, because, as the NY Ski Blog posts on the main page this year have shown, there are fun ski experiences at all types of mountains.

Personally, I think it's great that Sugarbush has MRG near it, Jackson Hole has Snow King, etc. I think Gore/Hickory used to be a good combo, too. Sometimes people like to take a weekend and do the "big resort", then check out the small local place on the way out (especially if it sets up a scenic drive home, like the one from Tupper to Long Lake to Blue Mountain Lake).

Anyway, if Big Tupper had a better lift system, upgraded snowmaking, and a revamped base lodge, there's no reason why it couldn't be at least a Plattekill level draw.

Concur

This appears to the rare thread MC and I agree

I really think there is a market for a blue green family experience at Tupper.  You guys probably don’t realize it but after teaching there for 20 yrs WF is not an ideal Mt for lower level skiers as it is just too steep in spots and they are hard to avoid.  WFs main green trail off the face lift has section that would be blue or even black at other ski areas.  Bell has a black that is less steep than the Boreen headwall which was a jump in the Olympic DH.

People coming LP from the west could hit it on the way home.  We get a lot of business from Toronto, Ottawa, Syracuse, Buffalo and Ohio.  Would fairly close to Ft Drum as well

All the colleges in Potsdam area would be close both for red skiers and race training.  I’d add lights so it could be the ADK night skiing spot.
Maybe certain days during mid week you only run it at night or not at all but let people skin up.
Put in a tubing run too

Better lifts, new snowmaking (old sytem gone) and a base lodge rehab - nothing to it.  Let's all pony up the $10M and get rich quick.

Taxpayer money instead?  Its still our money!

MC2 5678F589 wrote

as the NY Ski Blog posts on the main page this year have shown, there are fun ski experiences at all types of mountains.

I can die a happy man now.  

playoneontv wrote

Better lifts, new snowmaking (old sytem gone) and a base lodge rehab - nothing to it.  Let's all pony up the $10M and get rich quick.

Taxpayer money instead?  Its still our money!

Yeah but the Gov is going to spend it no matter what probably on something far stupider
Just skip the Mt coaster and we get a ski area instead

A 10m investment would require only $4m in additional sales tax being generated per yr for 30 yrs to pay back.  That seems very doable and it would likely pay back much faster.  Franklin County could kick in a extra bed tax to help pay it back as well.

MC...are you suggesting BT could be to WF what MRG is to Sugarbush?  Really??

Of course there are fun experiences at all kinds of mountains.  That isn’t just this year, it’s been that way for decades.  The colleges in Potsdam have been there for decades.  Despite all of that, BT failed at being a fun enough experience to attract enough skiers to keep it open.  If something fundamental has changed about the area or the industry that would buck that history, let’s talk about that.  I’d love to hear what’s different now from when BT previously failed.  Beyond that, taking the same hill, with the same snow, and the same community, and the same colleges in the area....and assuming it will work any better if you just throw State money at it....well, that just seems like folly, and eventually a more expensive failure than BT’s previous failures.

I don't think BT will ever be a true destination.

There are plenty of mountains that aren't. Like McCauley.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

I think Gore/Hickory used to be a good combo, too.

How'd that work out - last I looked Hick was closed and you drive by it BEFORE you get to Gore.

Gore's ski bowl hotel was never developed because THERE IS NO MARKET.

Z - Potsdam has Titus as an alternative to WF - did you forget about that? It's in between Potsdam and Plattsburg and the road is better. A NYS money dump into BT could drive Titus out of business if the plan is to pick up skiers from Potsdam.
I know what your objective is - get the gappers out of LP and cut down on the VRBO business.

PeeTex wrote

A NYS money dump into BT could drive Titus out of business if the plan is to pick up skiers from Potsdam.

Good point.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

Lots of people on this site seem to feel as though there is one specific ski experience that people want and they wouldn't settle for anything other than that. Strange, because, as the NY Ski Blog posts on the main page this year have shown, there are fun ski experiences at all types of mountains.

Absolutely.
However, unlike many on NYSB, the vast majority of skiers are not driving to 600 foot vert hills when there are much bigger choices closer with more reliable snow. It is the same reason that, despite the popularity of places like Seven Springs and Holiday Valley, very few people from NYC metro have tried these areas. There are better choices that are closer and easier to get to.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

Personally, I think it's great that Sugarbush has MRG near it, Jackson Hole has Snow King, etc. I think Gore/Hickory used to be a good combo, too. Sometimes people like to take a weekend and do the "big resort", then check out the small local place on the way out (especially if it sets up a scenic drive home, like the one from Tupper to Long Lake to Blue Mountain Lake).

I agree - but Hickory, in a way better location than BT, has been closed for years. The unfortunate problem is BT is not compelling or close enough to Gore or WF to get people to visit. If BT was the size and scope of MRG, it would still be open.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

Anyway, if Big Tupper had a better lift system, upgraded snowmaking, and a revamped base lodge, there's no reason why it couldn't be at least a Plattekill level draw.

Let's say this happens. BT is operational and you like a smaller, less crowded area. The closest metro is Albany. If you day trip to BT from Albany it is about 2:40. Here are some other choices with approximate driving time:
Middlebury - 2:30
McCauley 2:25
Snow Ridge - 2:15
Pico      2
Oak 1:45
West     1
Willard 45min
Royal 1
Magic 1:30
Bromley1:20
Catamount 55min
Bousquet 50min
Butternut 1
Bershire East 1:40
Platty 1:40

What is going to make people skip all these places, not to mention the bigger choices that are closer, to go to BT? Why should NYS favor BT over some of the smaller NYS ski areas on the list?

Harvey wrote

PeeTex wrote

A NYS money dump into BT could drive Titus out of business if the plan is to pick up skiers from Potsdam.

Good point.

At least then Z could stop beating the drum about how ORDA put BT out of business.....but would he beat that same drum for Titus?

MC2 5678F589 wrote

Lots of people on this site seem to feel as though there is one specific ski experience that people want and they wouldn't settle for anything other than that. Strange, because, as the NY Ski Blog posts on the main page this year have shown, there are fun ski experiences at all types of mountains.

Personally, I think it's great that Sugarbush has MRG near it, Jackson Hole has Snow King, etc. I think Gore/Hickory used to be a good combo, too. Sometimes people like to take a weekend and do the "big resort", then check out the small local place on the way out (especially if it sets up a scenic drive home, like the one from Tupper to Long Lake to Blue Mountain Lake).

Anyway, if Big Tupper had a better lift system, upgraded snowmaking, and a revamped base lodge, there's no reason why it couldn't be at least a Plattekill level draw.

My thoughts exactly. The Platty of the ADK.

x10003q wrote

Let's say this happens. BT is operational and you like a smaller, less crowded area. The closest metro is Albany...
What is going to make people skip all these places, not to mention the bigger choices that are closer, to go to BT?

Again, I don't think Albany skiers are the market here. Potsdam, Canton, Paul Smith's, Tupper Lake, Saranac Lake, Long Lake, etc.

Big Tupper will never be a destination resort. It will be a hill for locals, college kids, & second home owners. Why did it fail a few times? Poor management doesn't get a lot of mentions in this thread (instead, people blame the weather & the location), but I think it should.

Should ORDA prop up more ski areas to provide an anchor business for struggling ADK communities? Sure! Oak, if that goes under again? Why not? Buy the Adirondack museum in Blue Mountain Lake, too, why do I give a shit? There are millions of taxpayers in NY. I think boosting up ADK towns to vibrancy is good use of the State's resources, but I'm a socialist, so maybe Z can give an answer more suitable to you selfish misers.

Also, a small reminder from Scott Gaffney (of Match Stick Productions fame) what having a cool, funky, local ski area can do for a community:

MC - I'm all for somebody rescuing BT and I don't care if the town of Tupper does it, but I will scream bloody murder if NYS does it. If Tupper Lake did it and then came crying or NYS for more money for infrastructure or town renovations again I would scream bloody murder.  Get Bloomy to spend $1B on Tupper Lake instead of the foolishness he is spending it on now (fat chance - too much ego there).

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that a couple mill doesn't matter in terms of the State Budget, but it'd be too much for the village of Tupper Lake to handle.

I'm still hoping to win the Powerball & buy it.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that a couple mill doesn't matter in terms of the State Budget, but it'd be too much for the village of Tupper Lake to handle.

That's a fact, that's why the town sold it.

At McCauley, I learned this weekend, there are essentially snowmobile taxes that keep the hill going. At least in part.

It is my understanding from that McCauley loses well over six figures a year, the town props it up as an economic driver, and it generally comes out even for the town while stimulating their economy during the winter. Ski Big Tupper would probably fall into the same category, however they don’t get near the natural snow they Old Forge does.

I would be a regular user of Big Tupper if I were walking up hill or riding the lifts and I really hope that it is able to open for some type of public use in the next few years. I do think it needs at least an infusion of around $10 million to get lifts and snowmaking up to par before that were to happen, however. The state investing in the infrastructure and the town or a local organization operating it (as it was previously) would be the best way for that to happen, in my opinion.