Petition for ORDA to take over Big Tupper

Harvey wrote

Yea not sure about that number.......

Yeah, I’m sure the “average” there might be a little deceiving with whatever 400 inch year they claim they had.  Over the last 8 years they’ve averaged 129.  Still 40% more than the Tupper average.

Biggest reason for Tupper’s failure has to be the age old adage.....location, location, location.   It’s too far away from Placid and Saranac, and it is in the wrong place for snow.  How many starving for terrain green and blue skiers are going to drive 2 to 3 times what it takes to get to WF to ski a hill that doesn’t get enough snow.  Tupper closed after the 11/12 season, when they only operated 12 days due to lack of snow.

Z makes a passionate argument based on nostalgia and his local desires/preferences, but he stretches the truth and ignores the obvious.

If you look closely at ORDA’s mandate, it’s not to bring winter sports to the region and drive economic development.  While it is tasked with operating ORDA facilities (including WF, Gore, and Belle) to the  social and economic benefit of the regions in which they operate, it’s done in the context of a program designed to promote national and international athletic training and competition in support of the USOC training program.  One could argue that by maintaining ski operations in the Cats, So. Adks, and No. Adks they are geographically poised to promote the sport of skiing, and development of future Olympic athletes, throughout the state (who really cares about western NY anyway?), in accordance with their mandate.  

Is having a little nothing hill in the middle of nowhere that doesn’t get enough snow and has already proven to be a failure going to improve ORDA’s ability to accomplish it’s mission?

Doesn’t seem like it.

Bellerye had never come even close to turning a profit in its history under DEC and geographically it is farther away from nyc off the Thruway than its competition.  Bells skiing is honestly pretty boring compared to its competitors as well but it seems to be doing well under Orda.  That same formula can work with Tupper.

Send AK over to Turn a big part of it into a huge park and light it up at night.  Build a legit race trail and hold races there.  Have it as a blue green Mt and it will work.  Orda is spending $60m on Mt Vanho that would get a small fraction of what the skier days BT could do on $10m.

I just google mapped it.  BT is 23 mins farther from Lake George compared to WF

I'm with ya Z

I signed that petition

Like I said earlier I met some folks in Long Lake who really enjoyed skiing at BT so I'm pulling for their beloved to make a grand return.

True, there's a lot of money being sunk in to Mount van Hoevenberg.  I admit it's hard for me to be I'm partial on this, yet at the same time, all the current renovations at van Ho have been in the UMP since 1986.  It's about time.

Curious to see if the World University Games will bring a revenue bump and World Cup bids.

I was wondering how long it would take Z to trash Belle.  

It seems z supports having a 3d Orda mountain in the Daks and would close Belle.  But like it or not Belle is in the system.  

I know Belle is not popular here, but it certainly drives tourists to that part of the Cats and it is already part of Orda.   I am not defending Belle management but skier volume there (anecdotal) has gone up substantially in last two years.  My guess is 40-60 percent higher.   Presumably ORDA  publishes skier visit numbers on an annual basis.  

My understanding is that Belle did not want to go from DEC to Orda.   But, unlike tipper, it is in the system and drives dollars to the cats.  

Full disclosure- we are likely getting Epic local passes next year - for family of four it is same price as ski 3 with very good mountains, some which are not blacked out.  

It is never going to happen. Bell, Gore and WF are all defined by the NYS Constitution. It should take 2 years to get a constitutional amendment to get Tupper into NYS ownership and that would include NYS residents voting. Why would NYS residents vote to buy a failed minor ski area in the middle of nowhere?

Since we are talking about NYS buying closed ski areas, maybe NYS should look at buying Tuxedo Ridge (Sterling Forest). It last operated in 2015. There is no question it would do more visits and generate more money for ORDA than Big Tupper. As an added benefit, all the terrain is blue/green and it is only 30 minutes from millions of people.

See - I can be just as absurd and obtuse as the Big Tupper supporters.

ORDA is already sitting on a dormant gem that could make Belle an incredible mountain, if they could only find a way to get highmount online.  I would love to have Tupper part of my pass but would only go to Belle if I could ski Highmount again.  The state already owns Highmount.  I might not still be around by the time ORDA got Tupper up and running.  (See ORDA screwup thread). Let’s see what Rumbough(sp?)can do with Tupper.

x10003q wrote

Since we are talking about NYS buying closed ski areas, maybe NYS should look at buying Tuxedo Ridge (Sterling Forest). It last operated in 2015. There is no question it would do more visits and generate more money for ORDA than Big Tupper. As an added benefit, all the terrain is blue/green and it is only 30 minutes from millions of people.

See - I can be just as absurd and obtuse as the Big Tupper supporters.

Shit......that’s some good crazy right there. Seriously. ORDA takes a page out of the Vail model and buys a feeder hill close to Gotham City. I’d never ski there, but think it’s an intriguing idea.

Other than Z who do you find annoying?

witch hobble wrote

x10003q wrote

Since we are talking about NYS buying closed ski areas, maybe NYS should look at buying Tuxedo Ridge (Sterling Forest). It last operated in 2015. There is no question it would do more visits and generate more money for ORDA than Big Tupper. As an added benefit, all the terrain is blue/green and it is only 30 minutes from millions of people.

See - I can be just as absurd and obtuse as the Big Tupper supporters.

Shit......that’s some good crazy right there. Seriously. ORDA takes a page out of the Vail model and buys a feeder hill close to Gotham City. I’d never ski there, but think it’s an intriguing idea.

Not fer nuthin but Sterling is probably the one closed ski area in the region that would have a shot at becoming a good money maker if it was reopened under the right circumstances. Ironically it seems like it was the state dangling the possibility of issuing a casino license for the site that caused it to close last time.

Peter Minde wrote

Curious to see if the World University Games will bring a revenue bump and World Cup bids.

I bet it does.

Geez - let's start a petition for ORDA to buy Hickory. According to Z it would be greatly improved if they added snow making, blasted out the rocks and stumps, widen & straightened the trails, bought a few piston bullys, added lifts, built a fancy lodge and turned it into West - just say'n.

tjf1967 wrote

Other than Z who do you find annoying?

Nobody.

I do enjoy the Z trip reports and the racing updates about his boy.

The money for the community is in world cup events. The games they secured gets the state  poney up to get the venues up to standards.  

Dom I actually said that Orda had done a decent job getting skier count up at Bell.  It’s not my cup of tea and adding a Gondi was totally over kill but the numbers are in fact up for skier count.  I still question if it is profitable.

I didn’t start this petition drive and 5k people have signed it in 2 days so I’m not alone in thinking it’s a good idea

According to the newspaper article the Gov said it’s an interesting idea and if he thinks he can get votes from this it has some legs.  It didn’t take a constitutional amendment to move Belleyre to Orda it was done by The Govs decree.  The town can take the land for unpaid taxes then do a swap or transfer to the state.  The Gov then decrees it’s now part of Orda.  It could happen by next winter since it’s an election year.

Z wrote

Bellerye had never come even close to turning a profit in its history under DEC and geographically it is farther away from nyc off the Thruway than its competition.  Bells skiing is honestly pretty boring compared to its competitors

This is geographic nonsense.  Belleayre is closer to 87 than any area but Hunter, is about the same distance timewise from 87 as Hunter, and doesn't require traveling on 23a with a bunch of nervous city drivers in zipcars and buses.

Boring depends on perspective.  Too much runout and similar trails sure.  Belle has trees that are almost equal to Platty though, and a number of 20 foot cliffs. It also gets more and better natural than Windham or Hunter. Belle is great for beginners and intermediates, and great for experts.  It is kinda boring for the "pretty good" skier.

Z wrote

I just google mapped it.  BT is 23 mins farther from Lake George compared to WF

Waze has BT 1hour and 9 minutes further than Gore, which you drive right by if you start at Lake George village. Also twice the time from Clifton Park.
Location and ADK population loss sank Big Tupper, not ORDA.

mm

Yup.

Another thing I've mentioned before. If you're going to look at this public money "invested" in a struggling place that creates the conditions for private money to follow, therefore, multiplier effect, than even Gore is a failure, an hour closer to population centers. Where are the bars and restaurants and beds in North Creek? I guess the place would be pretty dingy without Gore, but it's pretty much a ghost town, especially off season. So we're arguing that millions should be spent at Tupper, a lesser mountain?

DomB wrote

I was wondering how long it would take Z to trash Belle.  

It seems z supports having a 3d Orda mountain in the Daks and would close Belle.  But like it or not Belle is in the system.  

I know Belle is not popular here, but it certainly drives tourists to that part of the Cats and it is already part of Orda.   I am not defending Belle management but skier volume there (anecdotal) has gone up substantially in last two years.  My guess is 40-60 percent higher.   Presumably ORDA  publishes skier visit numbers on an annual basis.  

My understanding is that Belle did not want to go from DEC to Orda.   But, unlike tipper, it is in the system and drives dollars to the cats.  

Full disclosure- we are likely getting Epic local passes next year - for family of four it is same price as ski 3 with very good mountains, some which are not blacked out.

I tried that last season. Dont know where you live, but, all I can tell you, is that Stowe is a long drive. Long drive. It's also a mountain very prone to entirely shutting down due to wind, because it's contained on one aspect, not varied, like Killington or some other mountains. Also, they have had extreme traffic issues on weekends on the access road the last few seasons. This year there was a three hour line from well beyond the village to get up there one Saturday morning. And, of course, Google the disastrous lift 5 line at Vail from a few weeks ago, if you are thinking of using your Epic for a trip west. It was so bad some people tried to hike out.

If Sugarbush goes full Ikon, which they very well may, since Alterra just bought them, I'd suggest that pass, although Ikon has created serious crowding issues out west, too. But, Sugarbush is closer, and a better mountain, and you get 5/7 days at Killington. We'll see how that works out. It changes every Spring, so watch the announcements after the season ends.

Benny - thanks for the intel. i really appreciate it and would be happy to connect on your experience.  Warning - thread drift - Harv is there an epic pic discussion on the forum?

My thinking pro epic pass was (1) because Belle has been so crowded on weekends I could ski hunter on weekends (a few weekends this season when there were long lines at Belle I was told that lines at H were not bad.).  Also H now has twice the acreage of Belle (more than WF).  Also, not fun mountains from what I hear but Okemo and Mount snow were part of the acquisition that brought in H.  

On longer holidays, (2) I could go to wildcat, Stowe (except Xmas) and some other mountains.  While Stowe would be the most interesting eastern mountain, on holiday weeks 90 percent of my skiing is on laid back groomers with friends and family that would not be comfortable on the really fun stuff.  Maybe, maybe on a lunch break I skip lunch and hit Lies, etc (rumor was not open last times I was at gore).  By want of pleasing my family (for family reasons and lack of guilt if I disappear for a few solo days), holidays tend to be green and blue and easy black groomer days. No biggie for me as it is a handful of ski days a year.  

And, (3) if we go to Breck (unrestricted), I would get to intro my family to lovely powder/western skiing.  My wife would actually prefer that because the western mountains typically will be less crowded and easier snow.  

So, really three reasons pointing me to epic local, after a few days where my nine year stoke skier is saying, dad let’s look for another mountain.  

I would do Icon pass as my buddy has a condo at copper but I am down on western LI.  Belle is 2.5 hours no traffic with a ski club sleeping option; Gore is 4.  Hunter and southern Vermont mountains would be the same under epic with a Colorado option.  

Also, car tech may influence all of this if I ever get a self driving car.  

Thanks again for intel.  

Best
D