Problems at Belleayre

Aussie sorry but the facts are Northern NY state is a net winner especially the 7 Northern most counties. It receives way more state funds than it generates in Tax revenue. The State investment up here is disproportional to  NNY's tax generating power

The tax revenue generated here in NNY is a minor fraction of the actual state annual investment up here considering all the public and quasi public entities that are included in the state budget that do business in NNY . Not only skiing venues but schools , universities ( Both private and public ) receive state aid , prisons , mental health facilities hospitals all receive some state funding, infrastructure ,all local and county governments . development agencies , Encon  you name it the benefits NNY receive FAR OUTWEIGHS the the tax revenue generated from this region .

With the NYC tax generating engine simply put there would be  little to no state investment up here. So as distasteful to some as these facts are without NYC --------------NNY would be worse than Appalachia

please aussi, not another political blow hard rant on this forum. call talk radio if you want to deal in ideology.

NY has to decide what the goal is for Belleayre. If the goal is to provide the former DEC employees with living wages and a good benefits package then the taxpayers will have to accept some deficits. If the goal is to have a competitive ski area then Belleayre employees with have to accept the same labor agreements that other ski areas have - seasonal employees who have to fend for themselves for insurance and in the off season.

Zippy wrote

NY has to decide what the goal is for Belleayre. If the goal is to provide the former DEC employees with living wages and a good benefits package then the taxpayers will have to accept some deficits. If the goal is to have a competitive ski area then Belleayre employees with have to accept the same labor agreements that other ski areas have - seasonal employees who have to fend for themselves for insurance and in the off season.

You used way more words on your second point.  
I don't want teachers or cops to lose jobs either..  But it's happening..

Are sure they don't get benefits when seasonal?

Lets not forget the absolutely most important thing upstate NY provides to NYC..

Water...  

dmc_hunter wrote

Lets not forget the absolutely most important thing upstate NY provides to NYC..

Water...

+1

Water is the #1 reason that NYC wants to have the Cats not developed - they would prefer that everyone is down and out up there as long as it gets all the clean and cheap water it needs.

Same goes for the Daks - the NYC elites (rockafeller, harriman et al) locked out almost all the development with the creation of the APA and then the arguement is that the DAKs cannot fend for themselves economically so we know better and will take care of them.  But now city folks are saying look at all the money we send up there.  Can't have it both ways either take care of the DAKs and Cats or cut them free and let them develop as the locals see fit.  

I'm happy with the way it is or better yet was under Pataki.  Don't mess with the Orda budget and if Orda does get saddeled with Bell make sure the budget is increased to compensate for taking on a losing proposition.

I'm not sure what the right thing is.
I certainly don't want Belleayre to close - I have friends that work and ski there..  And I doubt it will come to that but I'm not really on board with the financial aspect and I don't want ORDA saddled with it.  I just want them to have a better model and cover expenses.  It just seems crazy to me that I have to partially finance a family from New Jersey's skiing while cutback in schools are going on locally.  Sure they spend some $ in NY...  But many are proud that they pack lunches..  And do your think they gas up in the Catskills?  not when Jersey gas is way cheaper.   It doesn't have the same share house thing that hunter and windham have so it's tough to run a business down there.  The town of Windham is doing really well now and Hunter has had more businesses open lately then I've seen in a while.  Although this ski season has sucked for businesses...

But...  

Belleayre skiers are fiercely loyal - they will pay the extra to ski the joint since they pretty much detest all other ski areas.  
And the ones who leave will start to learn to enjoy the other areas.

It's a great little hill that has a good product for the people in that demographic.  The bar is awesome..  
View is great..  They put on some good concerts during the summer too..

Benny Profane wrote

<  Without NYC, you'd HAVE to eat deer and chop down trees to survive.

 If only life was really that simple

State money should not pay for a ski resort, period. Any for anyone using the logic that it helps the local economy well then, we may as well have the state pay for factories, stores, etc...

Funky Polak wrote

State money should not pay for a ski resort, period. Any for anyone using the logic that it helps the local economy well then, we may as well have the state pay for factories, stores, etc...

They do. Do you think that chip plant is below Saratoga is being built entirely with private funds? Nope, there were all sort of tax incentives and "grants" to get somebody to build that thing there, instead of China. Let's not even talk about the "unofficial" incentives that were passed under the table in the age of Bruno. The company I worked for in Saratoga for three years got major tax breaks to open a plant there. I'm sure most any large company basically opens themselves up to an auction process across the country for the best taxpayer supported deal, all in the name of "jobs" created.

One thing to give incentives, another thing to  run a business.

Funky Polak wrote

One thing to give incentives, another thing to  run a business.

I'd argue and I think many of you would agree that WF and Gore would be better off if they were leased by a  private operator and then would not need to support the rest of the money losing Olympic venues.  Okemo took over Mt Sunapee in NH which had previously been state run.  That area has improved greatly under private operation.

But this is a totally fantasy that is never going to happen becuase the NYS constitution forbids it.

Constitutions aren't written in stone.

Benny Profane wrote

Constitutions aren't written in stone.

It would likely take having the Gov and Legislature zero fund Orda to bring it to that point.  It then would need to have petitions signed, the legislature vote on it and then wait for a general election for the citizens of NY to vote to approve it.  That is probably a 2 year process which would cost us at least 3 ski seasons by the time they found an operator to take it over.  Not something I went to think about Benny without my head exploding.

Pretty sure Funky Polak the Kmart skier is a NJ resident so he doesn't really have any skin in the game.

ausable skier wrote

Pretty sure Funky Polak the Kmart skier is a NJ resident so he doesn't really have any skin in the game.

So that means I can't have an opinion? By the way, I do not limit myself to Killington and do ski Hunter and Plattekill.

ausable skier wrote

Pretty sure Funky Polak the Kmart skier is a NJ resident so he doesn't really have any skin in the game.

AS-
This is another fallacy you keep repeating. According to the study I linked to earlier in the thread 5 BILLION DOLLARS comes into NYS from NJ, CT, and other states. We have plenty of skin in the game, just zero representation. By virtue of where I live and work I might pay more to NYS in taxes than you do.

http://www.rockinst.org/pdf/nys_government/2011-12-Giving_and_Getting.pdf

x10003q wrote

By virtue of where I live and work I might pay more to NYS in taxes than you do.

thanks man!  I'll rip a couple fast ones for you on our ORDA made GunPow you helped pay for!!  

I still don't think that Belleayre skiers add to the tax base much..
I don't think the average Belleayre skier from NY and CT spend much while in NY...

I doubt they stop for gas..  Cause it's more expensive here..  And if they don't stop for gas - they don't buy stuff at the station...   And there's not a big ski house scene there...  So people don't generally spend the night..

i could be wrong.. just assumptions from what I've heard over the years...

Funky Polak wrote

State money should not pay for a ski resort, period. Any for anyone using the logic that it helps the local economy well then, we may as well have the state pay for factories, stores, etc...

So then, I assume you're also opposed to state (or federal) funding of public parks, public ballfields, public beaches, public transportation, public safety, public roadways, or anything else that might benefit the public. If you do in fact feel that way, I don't necessarily disagree with you. In some respects, privatizing all aspects of our society could turn out to be the best thing we could do, or perhaps not. It definitely leads to some interesting possibilities.

I just question your singling out state spending for a "ski resort". Is that it, or would you expand that?

Funky Polak wrote

ausable skier wrote

Pretty sure Funky Polak the Kmart skier is a NJ resident so he doesn't really have any skin in the game.

So that means I can't have an opinion? By the way, I do not limit myself to Killington and do ski Hunter and Plattekill.

Funky -
since you aren't a NYS taxpayer and don't partonize either of the NYS owned Mts and the one Hill I really don't see why you piped into this topic.  everyones opinion is welcome but just saying NYS should not run a ski area when it in is no way affecting you is odd IMO

X - that you chose to work in NYS and live elsewhere by default means that you don't get represented - you could live in NYS is you wanted to vote in NYS.  Like Scotty said thanks for your contribution to making Orda a better ski area - we really appreciate it man.  That was a classic line Scotty.