Problems at Belleayre

Heard rumblings that things are melting down at Bell.

http://catskillmountainnews.com/content/sick-workers-belleayre-cause-skiing-be-delayed-during-busy-holiday-weekend

Bell employees need to face the music that Orda is taking over because the DEC has too much full time staff based on the level of business and Orda will require Bell to operate as a business that needs to make money or not survive.  We can not allow Bell to drag down WF and Gore.

I also have a huge problem with Bell basically giving away skiing for $25 on Presidents Day Weekend.  A state supported operation should not be under cutting private businesses in the area on price.  If i ran Windham I doubt I would be as nice as they were to help out the low ball pricing Bell.

Maybe the best solution is to to sell or lease Bell to Windham.

Under the current rules, blame ownership can't be transferred to a non state entity even in a lease, which is why ORDA represents the path of least resistance for Albany to be "doing something".

ml242 wrote

Under the current rules, <s>blame</s> ownership can't be transferred to a non state entity even in a lease, which is why ORDA represents the path of least resistance for Albany to be "doing something".

shutting down Bell would be doing something

they are losing money like a drunk sailor and the only way to fix that is to cut back on employees and their wages / benefits with a work force that based on this weekends actions just doesn't get it.  If Orda does take over we can probably expect to see more of the same and that will drive customers away for good.

Bell also is giving tickets away and is offering crazy pricing that hurts other Catskill private resorts.

Just pull the plug on the whole thing and let it become a tele ski area for the states residents to use for free since its state land.

So, it's my understanding that these mechanics are full time all year employees with full benefits and state pensions? No wonder they're pissed. How much do they make?

Shades of Greece. The future will see more Gov't employees with their knickers in a knot.

Don't know Bell employees situation but consider this....

I have a friend who retired from being a prison guard here. He was in his mid 40's when he retired. Now he has a State funded pension with benies for the rest of his life. Because he loaded up on overtime towards the end, he gets almost as much money as when he was working.

Anybody here in the private sector get that kinda sweetheart deal, a Gov't funded pension/benies, after only 25 years ?

Snowballs wrote

Shades of Greece. The future will see more Gov't employees with their knickers in a knot.

Don't know Bell employees situation but consider this....

I have a friend who retired from being a prison guard here. He was in his mid 40's when he retired. Now he has a State funded pension with benies for the rest of his life. Because he loaded up on overtime towards the end, he gets almost as much money as when he was working.

Anybody here in the private sector get that kinda sweetheart deal, a Gov't funded pension/benies, after only 25 years ?

NO!!!! If I was smart I shold've been a DPW worker cause right nowI would be this:

"I have a friend who retired from being a prison guard here. He was in his mid 40's when he retired. Now he has a State funded pension with benies for the rest of his life. Because he loaded up on overtime towards the end, he gets almost as much money as when he was working."

i thought Bell had layoffs last year?  is this a new round or something?

If those guys quit..  There will be a line of a 100 people to take their spot..  Even if it is seasonal which normal ski employees are used to.

DMC - they got converted to seasonal, I'm sure they're making quite a bit less but I agree.

AS - Belle attendance is down 2/3's this year, with the national avery being down 15 percent. Normally I would agree about the crazy ticket deals, but this year they haven't even had a product to give away so no one went.  



As far as throwing money out the window, there's no accounting for its losses and profits as of now. I've looked. The DEC's budget was cut from 950M to 720M, so I'm sure that they wanted to reduce costs.

But why should Belle get to piss away money on FT and redundant labor?

Why should ORDA get $5M in tax money when they're enriching themselves on lavish salaries and real estate?

Why should NYC get shafted and send far more upstate than it receives back, particularly when on a whim the State can move 140M from the MTA to the general fund just to close a shortfall while we suffer from a lack of maintenance and trains?

The upstate attitude that states "feeding off the government teat is unacceptable (unless it's me)" has got to go. The bigger need is to fix these budget shortfalls and spend people's money with some accountability, but some things will lose some money.  That's the nature of being in a society and sharing, not every project can benefit you directly.

so they JUST got converted? Or did that just happen?
Any other positions converted?

People enjoy Belleayre because it's cheap and easy to ski.
If they have to pay full price - i bet they will take the mini-van somewhere else

Usually I ski Bell for the price and vibe, but this year I've only skied there once. You could tell that something wasn't right. I have been spending my money at Hunter. Hunter really made lemonade out of lemons this year..

Hunter has been amazing this year. I have never been more impressed with snowmaking.
As for Belleayre, I feel bad. I grew up skiing there and I want the mountain to remain open. Kick out the lift opts working full-time, year round for the state. Mountains and businesses are struggling this year because of the weather and these guys pull this stunt on the last hopeful weekend. That was a really selfish stunt. I personally don't think Belleayre competes in the same league as Hunter and Windham. Belleayre, especially without natural snow, has nothing challenging to offer. If anything, it competes with Windham....slow lifts, steep trails for 50 yards then bombing the rest of the run. Better for beginners.
These selfish employees know they're losing they're jobs and they're just being cocky about it.

Lets hope you don't walk in to work place someday and be told you're now part time and you wages are now half, with the same bills I bet you would not be overjoyed . State cuts should start at the top and work down, Politicians salary perks free insurance for life and pensions after a few years . Hammering on blue collar workers is bad and what all the big bosses on Wallstreet and Washington want.

Gunny J wrote

Lets hope you don't walk in to work place someday and be told you're now part time and you wages are now half, with the same bills I bet you would not be overjoyed .

That has actually happened to me twice in startup companies..  Wasn't exactly happy...

Occupy Belleayre?  

ml242 wrote

But why should Belle get to piss away money on FT and redundant labor?

Why should ORDA get $5M in tax money when they're enriching themselves on lavish salaries and real estate?

Why should NYC get shafted and send far more upstate than it receives back, particularly when on a whim the State can move 140M from the MTA to the general fund just to close a shortfall while we suffer from a lack of maintenance and trains?

The upstate attitude that states "feeding off the government teat is unacceptable (unless it's me)" has got to go. The bigger need is to fix these budget shortfalls and spend people's money with some accountability, but some things will lose some money.  That's the nature of being in a society and sharing, not every project can benefit you directly.

ML you need a serious reality check.  NYC sucks the life blood out of the rest of the state and sends so little north that its not even funny.  The majority of upstate NYS is right leaning politically and NYC is left.  Thus us northern folks have little to no say about what goes down in this state.  ORDA makes money over all but we have to beg the NYS govt to let us keep it up here.

Bell is a loser and will drag down the rest of ORDA and based on folks like you once orda is losing money with Bell then we will get no funding what so ever.  They blow $5M on new steps to a subway station in NYC and that keeps entire counties tourism economies running up here.

ausable skier wrote

  NYC sucks the life blood out of the rest of the state and sends so little north that its not even funny.  The majority of upstate NYS is right leaning politically and NYC is left.

Wow, just wow. Listen, just once, try to imagine NY state without NYC. I can help you with that one. It's called Vermont. Dirt roads everywhere, no thousands and thousands of workfare state jobs keeping useless towns and counties barely breathing, and private investment running the tourist industry, not downstate tax dollars. Tons of poverty,too.
Name me a major industry that thrives north of Dutchess and Orange county without state help and tax dollars supporting it, besides higher education. The entire Eire canal industrial urban cores should have been mowed down forty years ago, but those cities are kept alive with tax dollars from some of the richest companies and individuals in the world. Remember, every time a financial transaction takes place in NYC, a penny or two goes to some state worker's pension. Without NYC, you'd HAVE to eat deer and chop down trees to survive.

ausable skier wrote

ml242 wrote

But why should Belle get to piss away money on FT and redundant labor?

Why should ORDA get $5M in tax money when they're enriching themselves on lavish salaries and real estate?

Why should NYC get shafted and send far more upstate than it receives back, particularly when on a whim the State can move 140M from the MTA to the general fund just to close a shortfall while we suffer from a lack of maintenance and trains?

The upstate attitude that states "feeding off the government teat is unacceptable (unless it's me)" has got to go. The bigger need is to fix these budget shortfalls and spend people's money with some accountability, but some things will lose some money.  That's the nature of being in a society and sharing, not every project can benefit you directly.

ML you need a serious reality check.  NYC sucks the life blood out of the rest of the state and sends so little north that its not even funny.  The majority of upstate NYS is right leaning politically and NYC is left.  Thus us northern folks have little to no say about what goes down in this state.  ORDA makes money over all but we have to beg the NYS govt to let us keep it up here.

Bell is a loser and will drag down the rest of ORDA and based on folks like you once orda is losing money with Bell then we will get no funding what so ever.  They blow $5M on new steps to a subway station in NYC and that keeps entire counties tourism economies running up here.

Hilarious. You have no idea what you are talking about. ORDA does not make money. It never has and never will.

More money goes up state from NYC and its suburbs than it gets in return. It is absolutely false that NYC gets more money than it gives to NYS. Here is a link to a study from 2009-2010 that explains were the money in NYS comes from and were it goes:
http://www.rockinst.org/pdf/nys_government/2011-12-Giving_and_Getting.pdf

A quote from the study:
"Table 1a allocates New Yorkers’ income-tax payments to the
region in which they reside. Particularly relevant for our purposes,
this means the measure of total revenue excludes $5 billion
paid by residents of New Jersey, Connecticut, and other states. It
also means that state income tax payments by people who live on
Long Island or the northern metropolitan suburbs — but who
work in New York City — are credited to the suburban counties
rather than the city.
By this analysis, New York City’s share of state revenue
payments is around 45 percent, and it receives 40 percent of expenditures.
The Downstate Suburbs provide roughly 27 percent of
taxes and other revenues, nearly 10 percentage points more than
they receive in aid for education, health care, state payroll, and
other expenditures. By contrast, the Rest of State region provides
24 percent of the revenues and receives 35 percent of expenditures.
Not surprisingly, the Capital Region also shows a net gain,
with a gap of 3 percentage points between its share of revenues
and of expenditures."

So to be clear
NYC sends 45.1% ($3,915 per capita) and receives 40% ($3,881 per capita) 42.9% of population
Down State Suburbs send 27.4%( $4,711 per capita) and receive 17.7%($3,400 per capita) 21.7% of the population
Capital region sends 3.8% ( $3,326 per capita)and  receives 7.0% ($6,934 per capita) 4.2% of the population
Rest of NYS sends 23.8% ($2,843 per capita) and receives 35.2% ($4,702 per capita)31.2%of the population
These numbers are from Giving and Getting: Regional Distribution of Revenue and Spending in the New York State Budget, Fiscal Year 2009-10, Rockefeller Institute

The per capita spending is way in favor of upstate NY.  Read the study. This pattern repeats itself over and over again.

Once again you have written something that is exactly opposite of reality.

AS - You couldn't possibly be more wrong about this. When I say NYC, I mean NYC and it's suburbs where people actually want to send their kids to school and have the opportunity to make incomes that far exceed the national and state averages.

Belle, ORDA, whatever. Those are almost insignificant compared to the most gigantic financial (and heavily taxed) area in this whole country, maybe the world. I can guarantee you that more money will be spent on construction ON MY BLOCK than in almost any town in upstate ny. All of those condos will pay property taxes. All of the earners in them will pay income taxes.

What happens when they realize that the amount of money that gets spent on their services compared to what they pay in is not close to proportional.

But your whole idea that X COMPANY only gets a little bit so it's ok (like you just said about ORDA) is the slippery slope that led all of us here, because it isn't Belle and Gore, it's every pet project everywhere.

But, beg away to let ORDA "make money" with their subsidy, but all of your arguments can be turned around against you. And don't expect the residents of the 28 lifeline to help you out after you shut down the one tourist attraction they have. Belle gets the same visits as Gore and Whiteface, so there is no reason it shouldn't be almost as profitable.

But you want to let it die since it's a "loser". And after that precedent gets set there is zero argument for you to actually keep the funding you have, because why should NYS be in the recreation business anyway since it's a loser, skiing is for rich people, etc, and so on.

If Whiteface is the best, it should probably also cost the most? Hell, we the people already own Stowe and it still cost $94 to ski there.

If you want things to be fair: Auction off all the areas
If you want things to be best for skiing: Find some other way to cut money from the state budget or find a productive solution for Belle.

There are lots of ways to save. Privatize your prisons. Let private companies run your schools for money. I'm not taking advantage of either service, so it's all fine for me right? Oh wait, I actually don't want children reading textbooks that compare MacDonalds Big Macs to MacDonalds Chicken Tenders when it could say Apples to Oranges.

And seriously, so what that you're red leaning upstate? The right are the biggest bunch of welfare queens that exist, and NY is no exception.

Here's Bloomberg's take on it:

Mayor Michael Bloomberg testified to New York state legislators that New York City gives the state $11 billion more than it gets back, Vallone stated: "If not secession, somebody please tell me what other options we have if the state is going to continue to take billions from us and give us back pennies. Should we raise taxes some more? Should we cut services some more? Or should we consider seriously going out on our own?" The New York City council planned to hold a meeting on the topic.[2]

And the country as a whole:


edit to add: RED INDICATES TAKE MORE TAXES THAN IT PUTS IN.

Again, this whole system that is broken... is your reality checker too?

again, we live in a society that sometimes means you don't put a dollar sign on every stop sign. the life that it saves might be your own.

Noah John wrote

Ausable Skier, you spew about stuff you don't know anything about.  

Still applies.

Ok the sucking the life blood comment was a little too strong  may have been a case of brew pubitis last night

NYC is dependent on Ustate for a range of issue not the least of which is water.  No upstate NY and there would be a big desalization plant out on Long Island.

Also if not for upstate where would NYC send all its criminals???   The prisons are the #1 industry of upstate.

It is a valid point that the small amount budgeted to Orda does a really good job of supporting tourism in the region and that money is multipled many times over and spread throughout the economy.  And a relatively small project in the city costs more but does not have the same impact.

I strongly feel that Bell has no business being part of Orda and that Bell has the potential to end up making the whole orda house of cards come crashing down.  If Orda starts posting big losses where there used to be profits the Gov and legistlature will be more likely to lessen Orda's funding or eliminate it all together.  I admit its selfish that I don't want to risk WF for keeping Bell operating but based on the employees actions this past weekend at Bell - its justified.

The only way Bell has been able to post respectable skier days is to give away huge amounts of free lift tickets and sell tickets for$25 on President's weekend.  This hurts the other local ski areas in the Cats.  If Orda takes over that will come to an aburpt halt.  In many other posts I have advocated that the Catskills form their own development agency that the counties and towns pay into like they do to Orda up here.  Then Bell can navigate its own route.  I strongly suspect its not viable but that should be for the locals down there to determine.