Some Reasons Gore's Current Status

I saw ads under the I love NY campaign, and they ran radio spots in the beginning of the winter. I saw way more Stratton posters in NY than other places, though...

Coach Z wrote

Orda has spent more capex on Gore than WF over the last 10 years.  How is that a bias in favor of LP.  You southern Dak dudes need to give up on this bs argument.  It's your local businesses that are not investing to make this happen down there.  Built it and they might come.  Don't built it and for sure they ain't.

You need to understand the history of Gore under ORDA.

From 1984 when ORDA took over Gore until the mid 1990s, ORDA did zero to expand Gore up to its mileage limits. I saw ORDA Unit Management Plans for Gore in the 1980s that looked like what Gore is now. Gore never had enough water for snowmaking. The pipe into the Hudson was approved in the late 1980s and it took over 5 years for the money to show up to actually install the pipe. There was a cut for the current gondola line made in the early 1990s and the gondola was finally built for the 2000 season. Why the delay? It could not have been just money.

Even in recent history, I (and Snowballs) have mentioned how the  ORDA board tried to delay the Hudson Triple install in the NC Snow Bowl. ORDA board member Serge Lussi (owner of the Crown Plaza) was the driving force behind the delay and he said that they should try to get some money out of Front Street as they were going to benefit the most from the lift. He then made a "joke" that he would love to have Gondola access to Whiteface from his property, a distance of 8 miles. That joke foreshadowed something better - the $20 million NYS funded, 90K sq ft convention center that was built right next to his Crown Plaza property. If Governor Pataki had not earmarked the money specifically for Gore's updates, ORDA would have found a way to use the money elsewhere.

Thanks to the internet, we can all see the nonsense that was hidden for years from our eyes and ears.

There are also the facts that you refuse to understand. Gore has a 40 mile mileage limit, Whiteface has a 25 mile mileage limit. Despite your opinion, Gore is way more suited to intermediates than Whiteface and much closer to the NYC metro area than Whiteface. Gore should be drawing a lot more visitors than WF (not the same amount), especially with all the updates. There had to be more money spent on Gore because it was so far behind and much larger mileage limits than Whiteface.

If the last 10-15 years of updating at Gore were properly spread out over the last 30 years, Gore and North Creek would be in much better shape and by extension ORDA would be in better shape. Getting the word out about Gore's new size and scope should be one of the main missions of ORDA. At this point, the lack of marketing of Gore in the NYC region seems counter productive and strange.

Since you feel the need to drag up history....

WF did have more investment about 40 years ago since they had this little called the Olympics there.  You may of heard about this somewhere though back then you probably didn't have running water or electricity in the southern Daks.

Both WF and Gore were equally not invested in the mid 80's thru late 90's

Then Gov Pataki got both the Gondolas and other improvements.  During this period up to about 2010 both were invested in equally.  Since 2010 gore has received way more Capex.

Orda does not pay well so they are not getting experienced marketing pros.  Not saying who they have are bad just that they need to learn on the job probably with less budget than VT big areas have.  Gore can't seem to figure out how to put a web cam on the web site so you can draw your own conclusions there.  There is not some great LP lead conspiracy against Gore.

I would tend to agree with the argument that it may not be ONLY the money, but the people.   There are lots of no cost to very low cost things that Gore could be doing but is not.    

In my real job I am confronted with peers asking me "why do you do that, you are making more work for yourself and not getting any extra pay"    My response is because I get paid well now and want to earn that pay, in addition to the fact that I enjoy it and my employees and our customer's ultimately benefit.    But after a long day and while driving home I often think......"they are right, I could have left 2 hours ago, not engaged my boss into changing a decision, not had that difficult conversation with an employee and still received the same pay".


If you have a web cam, you have to write a memo to get it, ask people to install it, train someone to run it, deal with the public and employees when it shuts down or breaks, plus 1000 other things......or you can go home on time and play music on your way home, free as a bird of thought as to how to improve or what to change, still earning the same pay.    

Multiply that by employees in every department and you have what you have.        


Just read a book review:  
That’s Outside My Boat
Charlie Jones and Kim Doren
Andrews McMeel Publishing, 2013




You can only control what is in your boat.    Not the wind, not the water, not your competition.  

 

I think the lodging and services argument is BS. If there was a demand for slopeside lodging at the Ski Bowl and fine dining in North Creek, those things would exist. Since there is not a lot of demand, those things aren't there. Yeah, you could force the issue like Jay Peak (building everything and creating your own demand), but Front Street doesn't have the money for that and I don't see any EB-5 money around.

Gore is a day trip area for the capital region. I wish it were more, but it just isn't.

I agree with Matt,    Wish it were not so, but it is.    


Most at mountain lodging is in rented homes.   People who pay the premium to rent a home for the weekend/week are the same people who like (or save money) to eat at home---you are paying for the kitchen, why not use it.    The two strip hotels are relatively in-expensive and draw the folks who are not fine dining.  Wings/hamburger crowd (that is me)   After that, people stay in and around Lake George in those nicer hotels and as such eat/drink in that local.    As for Copperfield, they have their business model.  Wonder if they are booked solid every winter weekend?   ADK lodge fully booked for 14 weeks?

Nothing happening in the other 3 seasons to attract enough rooms to build a hotel in town.    Barring the Front Street idea.    

Front Street has misread the North Creek market. Their existing plan includes a 120 room hotel right at the base of the Hudson triple.  If this hotel were to be developed instead as studio/1BR/2BR condos at a reasonable price point it would sell out. They could be even set it up as 1/4 shares or full on time shares. This location should have been built first and that might have got the ball rolling for the rest of the project. The visibility of that building would be great promotion for the rest of the project. In today's North Creek RE market, nobody is going to drop 700k in North Creek for a townhouse unit that is not slope side.

Yeah they know if the build a hotel it can take care of itself in the winter but what are they going to do in the summer?  That whitewater rafting crowd just is not going to cut it.  If there were money to be made people would be investing there.  

I wouldn't call it a misread until they build something. Maybe call it a trial balloon?

x10003q wrote

In today's North Creek RE market, nobody is going to drop 700k in North Creek for a townhouse unit that is not slope side.

I wonder if anything in NC has ever sold for $700K?

Harvey wrote

I wouldn't call it a misread until they build something. Maybe call it a trial balloon?

Don't they have a couple unsold duplexes that went up 2 or 3 years ago?

They do. (I didn't know they were duplexes)  Still they get criticized both for doing nothing and for being wild and crazy with expectations. Mac may be crazy for all I know, but he's also pretty successful from what I've heard so maybe not.

There is a lot of properties that are perpetually on the Market.
However I stopped by Izzys on my way home today and for an off season mid week they had a nice crowd. Had a nice lunch and will try to make it a point to stop there more often. Although 2x in cost the sandwitch was much better than what I usually get at Stewart's.

tjf1967 wrote

Yeah they know if the build a hotel it can take care of itself in the winter but what are they going to do in the summer?  That whitewater rafting crowd just is not going to cut it.  If there were money to be made people would be investing there.

Not a hotel - 120 individually owned condo units in one building. These individual owners pay all the maint and taxes whether the units are used or not. A separate management company runs it like a hotel. It would be no different than many other ski areas that do not have major summer traffic. When you buy a place at a ski area and if you want to rent it out, you realize that summer rental money will be minimal.

Harvey wrote

I wouldn't call it a misread until they build something. Maybe call it a trial balloon?

They announced the plans and purchase of the land July, 2005
http://www.frontstreetpartners.com/ski_bowl_project_announcement.htm
They received approval  April, 2008.
http://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news/story/16488/20101013/town-struggles-with-north-creek-resort 
The Hudson Chair opened in the Ski Bowl Jan, 2011.

It is six years after approval and four years after they get the connection to Gore. They have 3 duplex buildings (6 units) built or under construction (not slope side) according to their web site. It is not clear if any have sold.

The outlay so far:
Cost of land in March, 2005.
Taxes on land for over 10 years.
The cost of designing/engineering the project.
The cost of the permits.
The costs of building in phase 1A (gatehouse, roads, 3 buildings, etc.).

Zero return.

I would say they have misread the market.

x10003q wrote

Harvey wrote

I wouldn't call it a misread until they build something. Maybe call it a trial balloon?

They announced the plans and purchase of the land July, 2005
http://www.frontstreetpartners.com/ski_bowl_project_announcement.htm
They received approval  April, 2008.
http://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news/story/16488/20101013/town-struggles-with-north-creek-resort 
The Hudson Chair opened in the Ski Bowl Jan, 2011.

It is six years after approval and four years after they get the connection to Gore. They have 3 duplex buildings (6 units) built or under construction (not slope side) according to their web site. It is not clear if any have sold.

The outlay so far:
Cost of land in March, 2005.
Taxes on land for over 10 years.
The cost of designing/engineering the project.
The cost of the permits.
The costs of building in phase 1A (gatehouse, roads, 3 buildings, etc.).

Zero return.

I would say they have misread the market.

Anyone with any sense knows that they blew it big time. Things looked quite a bit different in 2005 through 2007 when Condos were selling well.
And please don't argue with Harvey, it just makes him mad. It's like the old saying about trying to teach a pig to sing.

LOCAL TAXES:

And the locals keep taxing 2nd home owners every chance they get.   I have my head in the sand and don't even look anymore.    Each year its seems property taxes get hiked to the legislative max but the homestead rule applies to those who are the only ones who can vote.    Taxation without representation.        

Don't want to steal thread, this has been argued before.   Services and school taxes for those who will never, or rarely use.     The town would just love Front Street to take off. $$$$$  

Interesting talk about what to do for the summer.  Having recently ought my season pass from Gore i became quickly pissed-off when I skied up in LP and saw their pass holder perks.  Especially when it come to the summer.  (perks are relative to where you buy the pass)

Gore perks amount to 10% off an ice-cream cone at Stewart's.    At gore it's $18-24 a ride on the Gondola.  When my family came from South Carolina and California I took them up the Gondola and it was over $150!! ONE F-ing RIDE!!
Sound summer tourist friendly?  The bounce houses were like $3 for one time through.  So for 6 kids it was $18 to go through a cheap bounce house one time.  The climbing wall, frisbee golf, Gondola are all priced WAY higher than at WF for the same thing.

Last summer they had full trains coming from Saratoga and the tourists went to the mountain.  I was there over-hearing people complain about the high prices.  Is ORDA really pricing it as a destination location?  Seems like they DON"T want people to stop in NC/

Oh, WF pass holders get free gondola rides all summer.  AND they can enjoy all of their better perks and get all the perks a Gore pass holder enjoys--no matter how lame they may be.  For the chump that bought a Gore pass (me) I get NO pass holder perks at WF.  So, why the hell would I buy my pass at Gore in the future?  I'll buy it from WF, get the Gore pass holder perks and the WF perks.  I can ski either place no problem.  And in the summer I'll take the day trip to WF and ditch NC.  I'll save almost $50 on the Gondola ride alone b/w me and my wife.

People may think differently, but to me it seems as if ORDA is clearly setting a pricing structure to drive people north.

Ummmm . . . . .

As i recall they also approved through the legislature those building lots all along Peacefully Vally road.

I ALSO recall some big news that may have hindered the real estate market a few months after approval.  
Now what was that?  
OH YEAH, a COMPLETE collapse of the real estate market and a global economic meltdown that drove the country into a prolonged depression (go ahead an candy-coat it by calling it a recession).

There's an outside chance that that may have had the slightest effect on the Front street development project, and why those lots on Peaceful Valley remain barren.

I am hopeful and see signs of change on the horizon.  Topridge estates are starting their second phase of building (those places are around $350-400K).  The mountain has also broken several attendance records the last two years.  Those people are coming from somewhere!

I too have brought many people (first timers) up to Gore mountain to see the mountain and ride the Gondi.   When they saw the price, they advised me they really don't need to ride it.  I offered to pay, they said they would rather buy a nice bottle of wine and take a hike.    Another example of pricing verses volume.    

Thanks for the info on the WF pass.  I will send all my friends that way.    That's just plain stupid.    

Bouncy house/tramp pricing---don't get me started.     OMG.  I have two kids under 9 who love these.  If Gore Mgmt could have heard their opinions.  I did not even have to say no.   They agreed to spend their vacation money elsewhere-----which happened to be Lake George.      

Gore blows anyways.  What do they get 130" of natural snow?  What's a bunch of glades with no snow?  Overpriced and typical inefficient state run operation.  Sure it's good occasionally for the short period when they have snow.   But, otherwise very inefficient to try to cover the whole mountain with man made like Snow Loco would like.  Too bad for Harvey and his cabin unless it's used for more than just skiing.