The Snowmaking/Operations Outlook Thread

Seemed to be getting flamed for posting about snowmaking and operations speculation in the conditions threads, so I thought I'd better make a different thread for it.  Here are my observations and predictions for the upcoming snowmaking window, by mountain.

Whiteface:  In the last window, they prioritized lower mountain terrain, staying out of the upper elevations during the extreme temps last week.  They were able to open a couple runs in Kids Kampus, plus Boreen and Brookside.  Very essential to have that terrain for the holidays to allow people to bypass Tower 10.  

In the next 2 days, which will be quite cold, I'm guessing they will remain focused on the lower mountain while they have favorable temps there.  Easy Way will be top priority because they need that long green run off the Face Lift.  Long term, that is needed to access the Lookout chair.  Additional terrain in the Kids Kampus and Bear areas will also spread out low level skiers for the holidays.

Following Monday/Tuesday, temps on the lower mountain will be marginal, but temps on the upper mountain will be good.  Approach opened on natural snow on Saturday, but that is a vital connection from top of LWF to Mt Run, and they will need to blow there to give them enough base to groom it.  They will also want the Summit open for the holidays, so they can get an extra lift, and it's a major selling point to have the full vertical open.  That is very low hanging fruit, given that Paron's drains into Excelsior, which is already covered, and the area they have to blow is completely above 3500 feet.  I'd expect this to be done by next weekend, after which they move on to Skyward.  Might also see some more action in the Mt. Run area, depending on water availability.


Gore:  Reporting that Topridge is next on the expansion list.  They also were setting up guns on Twister and Sleighride when I was there on Sunday.  I'm guessing that they move into the Dark Side and North Side following that.  Both Dark Side and North Side should be easy to open and get the lifts on-line.  Plenty of natural there already, and those trails don't require a lot of snow.  Could open both lifts for next weekend.

I'd think that barring any major thaw, Burnt Ridge will be seeing snowmaking around the end of the month, and the connection to the Ski Bowl will follow.


Belleayre:  After they finish Belleayre Run, they plan to add additional routes between the top of lifts 1-2 and the HSQ.  Very high traffic area there.  After that, they say they'll be trying to bring the Tomahawk Lift on-line.  I'm guessing the former are done during Monday/Tuesday, and the latter could be done some time next week.  Not sure though, as after Tuesday, only night time temps are good for snowmaking, but doesn't look like any r*in.

Great idea to break this out Sno. It works for the wonky people who are interested in these kinds of details vs. the ones looking for a conditions update.

Interestingly Gore listed Oakridge as a target for snowmaking. Is that because they have the capacity down at the bowl? I don't see them getting BR open to make the connection this week unless there is a big surprise storm I don't know about.

Rain yesterday hurt. Upper sunway was a brown icy obstacle course. I only skied Showcase as I was working the U19 slalom. Showcase held up reasonably well.

I do think they could get north side and dark side up reasonably quickly - it just a matter of time, temps and resources at this point.

To my knowledge, Whiteface doesn't resurface unless there's a major thaw that seriously reduces base depth.  Once the trail is open, grooming and natural snow are expected to keep it in good shape.  Hunter and Mountain Creek would resurface their key trails every couple weeks.  Since those trails get so much traffic, and they don't get much natural snow, grooming alone can't keep them fresh.

I skied Whiteface on Friday and Gore on Saturday.  Gore had more miles of terrain open than Whiteface, but didn't have all that thick of a base on it.  Whiteface blew at least a 3 foot base on Excelsior-Valley-Fox before moving elsewhere.  Trails covered afterwards are of similar thickness.  Gore had some thin spots with gravel showing on the lower mountain, and Hawkeye didn't have enough snow to be groomed yet.

Gore seems to resurface key trails more than Whiteface, so they do a "thin cover expansion" knowing that they'll make snow in a given location again.  Whiteface tries not to make snow on a given trail once it's first covered, so they make more snow there before moving on.  Gore has many more permanent towers than Whiteface, so it's less labor intensive for the crews to move around, whereas Whiteface's crew has to move ground guns around, so moving around less is much more efficient.

This kid knows his stuff.

Thanks Sno for sharing the info.  

We shall see if Whiteface updates their report tomorrow.  It seems to often be a day behind in terms of showing where SnowTribe is.  Tjf said in the other thread that the river is at a level where it doesn't hinder snowmaking.

Belleayre was originally planning to open more terrain in the Superchief/Lift 7 areas before moving to the Tomahawk lift.  They just changed their expansion plan to make that lift the top priority.  I'm guessing they're following the "Sno plan" and opening all lifts for Christmas.

In a better December (more natural snow), they'd expand terrain on the main mountain more before moving to the Tomahawk area.  They figured that from a lift capacity standpoint, they didn't really need that lift till Christmas, so they don't make snow in areas that require them to run it until they need the capacity.  I looked at the webcam today.  They were running Lift 1, Superchief, and Lift 7.  1 and 7 were running almost completely empty, while Superchief had more people, it was still sending at least 75% of the chairs up empty.

Windham just expanded snowmaking operations to the East Peak, in hopes of getting that lift up and running for Christmas.  They didn't run the Wheelchair lift on the other side this past weekend, but they have most of the terrain open, so that lift will be turning next week no question.

Hunter opened the West Side this past weekend with Clair's and Wayout.  They also recently expanded snowmaking to White Cloud and the portion of Hunter One served by the E-Lift.  Lower K27 and Upper Crossover are the only main mountain trails that they haven't touched yet.  They resurfaced most of their terrain today and should have great conditions for the upcoming weeks.

Mountain Creek opened for the season on Wednesday 12/14 last week with top to bottom runs on Vernon and South Peak.  They are anticipating opening Granite and Bear peaks this Wednesday 12/21.  The connection between Granite and South has also been blown, and may open too.  This will be the first time the Granite, Bear, and Sojourn lifts have operated in December since 2013.

They went all out on snowmaking when they had the temps and I'm guessing they might've seriously increased firepower over the summer.  They also relocated the snowmaking line on Jumping Jack to skier's left and put tower guns on it.  This will allow them to cover that more quickly and get a second route of South Peak open sooner.  This has been a major problem in years past, as Jumping Jack took a lot of snow to cover, and Canyon is narrow and an absolute shit show when the lift is running full and it's the only route down.  They also received many complaints last year and the year before of wholesale race closures of all of Bear Peak, so they blew snow on Bear Claw right away to keep that lift open when there is racing.

I will be visiting my old stomping ground on Christmas Day.  Hopefully all 4 peaks are open and connected by then.

Whiteface just reported on their fb page that they're setting up to blow on the Summit.  Looks like lots of natural snow already up there, so it should be open by Friday or Saturday no problem.  As temps at the upper elevations look favorable for the next week or so, they should be able to expand to Skyward quickly.  Likely by early next week.

I'm guessing that once they finish Brookside that they put the guns on Easy way to get that long green open for the holidays.  Approach is also being blown, and Mountain Run now has enough snow to groom, as was done today.

<quote author="snoloco">

Sno, why do you think Hunter hasn't toutched Upper Cross, or LK27 yet? Those are my favorite spots on the main mountain. It seems like they are short and it would be easy to al least put the first layer down.

Also wondering why Hunter avoids making snow on Annapurna. The three trails I just listed are my favorites.

They're blowing Upper Crossover as I type and may open it tomorrow.

Normally speaking, those trails aren't easy to keep in good shape because they can't groom them.  Few people can ski them, so they're not top priority.  Racer's Edge is the first of the 3 double blacks to open on the front side every time.

With regard to Annapurna, the previous owners came up with every excuse imaginable to not blow snow there.  Equipment issues, insurance company would raise their rates, ski patrol doesn't want it open, dangerous for the snowmakers, you name it, they used it as an excuse not to open it.  Found out that after both of the original brothers retired, the guy in charge just hated the trail, couldn't ski it, and would never blow a flake of snow on it as long as he was there.  They opened half the width of Westway instead.

Peak Resorts changed the entire terrain expansion scheme, mostly I think for the worse.  It used to be they opened Hellgate-7th-Kennedy first, and then opened Belt either at the same time or after.  They need Belt open as soon as they possibly can because it's the only intermediate run off the 6-pack.  Even if you say that intermediate terrain is only available from D-Lift down, they're getting on the 6-pack anyways.  Now they open all these secondary black trails on the top before opening Belt, and don't spin the F-Lift, so everyone has to go down a single runout on Kennedy.  However, one of the things they changed for the better was that Annapurna was now a priority.  They opened it in late January last year, and it held coverage till early March.  Too many thaws and they didn't resurface it, but in a better year, I think it would be open till the end of the season.  They opened it after everything on the front side was open.  Once K27 is done, I expect they will blow Annapurna.  They might even blow snow on Westway also.  Who knows.  I think they'll open Annapurna though.

Whiteface is reporting snowmaking on Paron's/Follies, as well as Upper Skyward.  Normally they blow Skyward only after Paron's is finished.  With all the natural snow there, they sort of had a head start, so I'm guessing they could spread resources to both trails rather than only focusing on one.

The sooner they finish the Summit, the sooner they can move on and cover Lookout.

I'd assume they also need to blow Wilderness to get the mogul course ready.  Easy Way also has to be blown to access the Lookout chair.

I'm skiing boxing day, would love to see Skyward open!

Could happen.  Whiteface is above the warm weather you and Jason are predicting in the other thread.  Good snowmaking temps from now till then.

No they aren't, still looks warm Monday into Tuesday, we go back and forth with warm, cold, warm, cold next few weeks.

Actually no, the NWS forecast for the top of LWF shows no r*in.  Temps are either good for snowmaking, or there's natural snow in the forecast.  Will be warmer than early this week, but not like you were saying it was going to be.  When it was really cold, they prioritized lower mountain terrain and put a lot of snow down there.  Even in the warmer periods, upper mountain temps are still good for snowmaking, so now they'll be expanding terrain there.

I don't care all that much about natural snow, a leftover opinion from my Hunter and Mountain Creek days.  Snowmaking temps are what I care about the most.

snoloco wrote

I don't care all that much about natural snow, a leftover opinion from my Hunter and Mountain Creek days.  Snowmaking temps are what I care about the most.

OMG!  

Petit Homme, I'd give 15 days of skiing man made for 1 day of skiing deep natural snow.  Nothing beats the real thing bro, nothing...

I have nothing against natural snow at all, except when it makes it impossible to get to the mountain due to bad road conditions.  I've gotten I think 2 powder days this year, and will likely get more.

I'm just saying that snowmaking temps are more important when it comes to terrain expansion at Whiteface, and their elevation helps with this.

snoloco wrote

I have nothing against natural snow at all, except when it makes it impossible to get to the mountain due to bad road conditions.

OMG JUST STOP

Snoloco is right. Have you ever seen what anything above the Face Lift looks like with no snow on it? or even with two feet of snow on it? It's gnarly. I love natural snow too, but cold temps are going to be a lot more important for Whiteface to get a lot open for the holiday than a 2 foot dump is going to help them. It takes a solid two months of accumulation at the upper elevations that doesn't melt off for them to be able to open trails like Empire. And I still hit rocks on that trail as much as I love it. "we make a ton of snow" is a better business model than "we get a ton of snow"  because you can never promise people that you are going to get snow. If you can have both, you're golden.

As far as temps go, I was looking at the extended forecast last night and they were predicting 47 degrees in my town for next Tuesday. they dropped that to 39 when I checked this morning. the extended forecast does look a little bleak, but I think WF will be able to continue making snow at upper elevations for a while. Hopefully we will get some solid cold temps when January sets in. Although it is important for a ski area to have as much open as possible for the Christmas break, as a skier, I don't really consider the ski season in full swing around here until January.

Thanks for the info about Hunter Snoloco. I didn't realize that they even made snow last year on Annapurna. I was there the first week in March, and there was nothing on it. One thing I noticed was that Annapurna has really old and inefficient snow guns in place on it that they have completely phased out on the rest of the mountain. So I don't know if they use them still, or if they drag their new Low-e sleds over there, but that would be very labor intensive. I think it would be great if they opened Westway again. It has snowmaking on both sides so it seems like it must have been a priority back in the day. Hunter West is my favorite.

 I'm wondering why you don't like the way Peak resorts is opening terrain? I didn't like the way they sent everyone down kennedy on opening day. That was slightly annoying. But I think Peak resorts is a lot more aggressive with their snowmaking horsepower. Everything on the front of the mountain is open at this point except for LK27. I'm not sure about Hunter one. I haven't been paying attention over there. So the only thing that affects me at this point is LK27, Annapurna, and Westway. My guess is that at the rate they are going, those will be open as soon as we have another cold snap.

I'm seeing a forecast for 41 degrees and some very light ncp at 4,800 on Whiteface for Monday.  No gully washer, no problem.  Marginal snowmaking temps at 4,800 Friday, with Sunday night into Monday night a no go on snowmaking temps.

Natural, in all subjects, is better than artificial!  The more/bigger the better!!

No doubt I have a lot more respect for natural snow than Snoloco, but I think snowmaking is vitally important to a resorts success. The more natural, the merrier!