The problem with snow making.

snoloco wrote

It's just going to wash right back into the same river at the end of the season, so what does it matter if they store it on the mountain.

This is just so obviously false and exactly the reason that we safeguard resorts from draining every lake and river they see completely dry, because I'm sure they wouldn't bother to research the statement past "it's going to drain back into the watershed anyway".

snoloco wrote

Since you think you're "too good" to ski at a resort, what does it matter if more ski areas "bubblize"?

Because as far as the planet goes we're all in this together and competing to the bottom of the barrel isn't great for the long term.

And if there wasn't any snowmaking, you'd have little to no days this year.  Stop biting the hand that feeds you, well unless you NEVER ski at a resort or on man-made snow.

snoloco wrote

And if there wasn't any snowmaking, you'd have little to no days this year.  Stop biting the hand that feeds you, well unless you NEVER ski at a resort or on man-made snow.

Incorrect. My season started on natural snow in November and has run through this past saturday, almost all on natural snow. I don't think I would trade any of those days for your best day on the east coast this season. I don't think anyone else with the ability to haul their own bodyweight, a backpack, and skis, 2-6 times up a hill would make that trade either.

Look at this way, I'm glad we have a military to protect the borders but I wouldn't want another arms race to ensure that we could blow up the world 25 times over. Pointless.


Not the best picture, but note the lack of snow making pipes along the edges of the trail as well as how awesome it is to ski on something that never saw a stick of dynamite. So rad.

I think Snoloco is missing the point of the article. The message I get out of it is that if our climate is indeed shifting in the direction it seems to be going we are going to have to start making tough choices. We will be forced to weigh in our values and prioritize our natural resources. It may get to the point that ski areas in the Catskills are no longer sustainable snowmaking or not, maybe it won't get to that but it's not out of the question. I think this pill is a tough one for someone as young and passionate as Sno to swallow.

Sno... fuck this shit.  You are wasting your time.  You should be learning French and saving money to buy some BC skis for when you are at Clarkson.  Those Montreal girls are cute... and it snows more north of the border.  You could have the ride of your life... and finish off with a little poutine to boot.

So you wouldn't trade having to hike miles for one run for one of my Steamboat days?

Hunter and Windham will be profitable for a long time and the government should not be getting involved and start shutting down ski areas.  Hunter has a huge snowmaking pond that they fill with the river that's near it.  I don't think they've sucked the river dry or plan to.  They're also a huge boost to the local economy.  ML had better shut up about them sucking rivers dry and ruining everything.  They don't and never will.

Here is a couple of articles from Skiing magazine I was involved with years ago. Both photos were taken in a two day span during the best storm cycle during one of the top three seasons ever here, maybe the best one ever. The mountain saw around 500 inches that season. I was excited to capture the back country here during epic conditions and once I found out the photos were going to be used in articles about the highly political and controversial snowmaking on the Peaks I was really bummed, I didn't want to be involved with any of that. The quote in the 2007 article says "Josh Langdon doesn't mind a little snowmaking at the Snowbowl" is taken way out of context. It was a good lesson to be very careful with what you say to interviewers. The chute in that pic is a line we call Hole In The Wall for the small arch you can see in the upper left hand corner. It's really freaking steep and gets even steeper below the frame of the picture. It sadly hasn't been filled in enough since that season.

snoloco wrote

So you wouldn't trade having to hike miles for one run for one of my Steamboat days?

Sorry, but ML's picture looks much more enticing

snoloco wrote

So you wouldn't trade having to hike miles for one run for one of my Steamboat days?

Hunter and Windham will be profitable for a long time and the government should not be getting involved and start shutting down ski areas.  Hunter has a huge snowmaking pond that they fill with the river that's near it.  I don't think they've sucked the river dry or plan to.  They're also a huge boost to the local economy.  ML had better shut up about them sucking rivers dry and ruining everything.  They don't and never will.

 Are you a scientist? Ya, I didn't think so. Your posts sound emotional and biased.

snoloco wrote

So you wouldn't trade having to hike miles for one run for one of my Steamboat days?

Hunter and Windham will be profitable for a long time and the government should not be getting involved and start shutting down ski areas.  Hunter has a huge snowmaking pond that they fill with the river that's near it.  I don't think they've sucked the river dry or plan to.  They're also a huge boost to the local economy.  ML had better shut up about them sucking rivers dry and ruining everything.  They don't and never will.

 
I skied at Steamboat for two years during the 90's. I hiked almost every day there to go to the chutes and what was called then the gates because I though the ski area was incredibly boring. I think it's great for most people but if you like a more adventurous experience I think 99% of that mountain falls flat. Like really, REALLY FLAT.

Nope. I would much rather hike all day to get in two or three super epic and adventurous lines like in the photo above than ski a whole season riding the lifts at Steamboat.

That's the part you just don't get. Some of us are driven by being and skiing where others aren't, skiing to us is about exploring and moving within a natural outdoor/mountain environment. It's not about groomers or snowmaking or lift capacity. You are young yet so there is plenty of time. We won't give up on ya.

Sno -

I am also not accusing Hunter of sucking the river dry, but if there weren't protections in place I have no doubt that they -- or any other mountain -- would be slurping out of every stream they could get their hands on. Thankfully, they're forced to impact assessments and in the long run you hope things work out for the best with this system.

I guess in comparing an "earned" day to a day at a nice resort (which your dad earned, good on him, and you will someday too) is that the experience to me is not pre-packaged. Even when I get "rewarded" with shit snow (rare) or challenging conditions (cold, crust, whatever, it happens), I build strong relationships with my partners, hopefully add a few days to my lifespan by staying fit, and have an experience that no one can perfectly duplicate. To me that means a lot. Just like two snowflakes aren't the same, neither are two ski days in the BC. I live for that and i live for fresh tracks. Spinning the wheel at Mount Snow for a season wouldn't give me the same joy de vivre.

Sno, maybe you never get 'the calling', but listen to the likes of RA, ml and others.  I wish I had guys telling me this stuff when I was your age!  I did have the benefit of my Uncle filling my head with ideas about Tuckerman's early on.  While I always had a desire from a young skiing age to be 'off the beaten path', hiking the Chin at Stowe, exploring the off map stuff from Paradise and beyond at MRG, and playing in the woods wherever I could, I waited 30 years to get into real BC skiing, years I regret wasting.  It's not for everyone, and maybe it won't be for you.....but you never know until you try.  That's why we have always encouraged you to develop your bump and tree skiing, so you can develop the skills to take you beyond the groomers.  Everyone is different.  At 14 and 15 years old my daughter wanted to challenge herself in the glades and in the Slides, whereas that isn't my 14 year old son's idea of fun.  I'm another one who wouldn't trade a couple quality days in the BC for a season of typical east coast groomers.  Not that resort skiing isn't fun, but a day spent in the BC where you and your partner are the only souls to lay tracks in hundreds of acres of untouched, unspoiled wilderness, challenging yourself against the mountain in both directions, being places that 99.99% of the worlds population will never be......it's satisfying in a way that resort skiing can never be.

snoloco wrote

That article is filled with false BS.  

Is there such a thing as true BS?

Interestingly Snowbowl only used 30% of it's allocated yearly amount of reclaimed waste water this season. The low percentage number is in part because of the heavy snowfall we had early season. Overall though we are 50 inches below the average (I doubt it's the actual average any longer) of 260 inches of natural snow for the season but yet the ski area has had it's second best season -$- since it opened during the 1930's.

Here is an article from our local paper this past week.
http://azdailysun.com/news/local/snowbowl-sees-near-record-winter-visitation/article_b4591741-ddce-5cfb-986e-fded453de46b.html

Random thoughts on the use of reclaimed waste water for snowmaking:

-I'm not a scientist but I'm guessing that there will be some impacts from the treated water, mainly the hormones from pharmaceuticals and there effects on some of the native species of flora and fauna. How bad is that impact I have no idea, see previous sentence.

-The snow melt water off the Peaks takes about a hundred years to filter down into the aquifer. That's some serious filtration. I do not know how well it will filter out the reclaimed water.

-The ski area is one of the longest continually running ski areas in the country. It's a key component for many of us to the quality of life here in flagstaff. It's also an important factor for the local economy and the area creates jobs as well, obviously. the skiing community here is just incredible, the skiing experience is more like hanging out at a local city park or your local pub (if you are a drinker you know what I mean, think of Cheers). It's where a lot of us spend our weekends to meet up with other families. It's safe and we let our 7+ year old kids run free all over the mountain. It's important to a lot of us that we have a sustainable and profitable ski area here. The place basically means a lot more to us than just skiing.

-Reclaimed waste water is being used all over the south west now and it's a reality people are going to have to get used to.
We utilize it everywhere here including city parks, grasses around our local government buildings, golf courses, etc. This area really can't sustain the amount of people that live here and it's teetering on the verge of having the poop really smash the fan if the long periods of drought persist.

-On the Native American religious beliefs? This is a complicated and difficult issue. I'm not a Native American and in all honesty I don't value religion. That may sound harsh but it's honest. I do value preserving the culture and I recognize the history we have had with the indigenous people in North America. I also can recognize the long term affects this history has and will likely continue to have for some time. I have a few Navajo friends that I mountain bike with. They have expressed to me their anger towards Snowbowl and the continued disrespect for their people. But when I asked them if the upgrades would eventually let the ski area develop a bike park they changed their tune and decided that they could get past their resentment to ride the chair in the summer. That bike park is now being planned. My friends can't represent the tribe obviously but what it did tell me is that most of us are going to stand behind what ever is best for ourselves. I want a successful ski area and a bike park. I do have a hard time believing that the use of the water for snowmaking on a very small percentage of the sacred mountain will have an actual effect on peoples ability to practice religious beliefs. I just don't buy that. In a lot of ways skiing for me has been my religion or I could argue that at least.

-There is another ski area that is now using 100% reclaimed waste water now in California and many others use it in some quantity.

Sno - do yourself a favor this summer and save some money.

Buy a set of Voile Vector BCs, some Volie Switchback bindings, and some T4/Excursion boots.  You could go AT but this a really lightweight setup that is very dh capable for less than a grand:

http://www.orscrosscountryskisdirect.com/backcountry-voile-vector-skis-package.html

You can ski it parallel, but it's going to be different that fixed heel... take it resorts on powder day, learn tele.  Ski your regular fixed heel stuff when it's hard.  Ski as much low angle stuff in the BC that can without using skins to get used to them... those scales will get you into plenty of trouble.  You'll have tons of access being at Clarkson.

Save your money for good weed, beer and coffee.  And of course gas to go skiing.

The only other rec for being up there is to have a good mountain bike, nice to have around campus too but most of the school year is snowy, so not a huge requirement.  I used to ride mine in the winter too (regular 26er) and just pack down tracks to ride.  You could probably pick up a decent used hardtail for $1000.

Those two things will make college a lot more fun... and of course girls, booze and dope

AND PS - everyone smokes dope at a school like Clarkson.  Unlikely you'll get out of there without at least a puff here and there.

With the "Famous Clarkson Workload" I don't think I'll have time to hike up the mountain.  Spending hours hiking up when I can take a lift and be at the top in 5-10 minutes isn't really appealing to me.  I plan to ski WF most often, meet my dad at Gore on days he wants, and do a "guys trip" to Tremblant over spring break.  There is also a Smugglers Notch trip that The Clarkson School does which I'd most certainly go on.

snoloco wrote

   There is also a Smugglers Notch trip that The Clarkson School does which I'd most certainly go on.

That place is dreamy ----- real old school ---- I'd take Smuggs over Stowe any day but I am biased  

Whatever man... I'm just saying going touring you can ski a lot more than WF for a lot less money... especially on holiday weekends when the resorts will be busy... you and some other like minded individuals which I'm sure you'll have no problem finding will be able to go find your own place to ski.

Also it's cool you want to spend time with your Dad, but part of going to college is going to be getting off the 'ole tit.  Be your own man.

WF is great and all, but it's big and exposed, there'll be days in the ADKs where that will be hard as fuck and there'll be nice snow in the woods.

Plus skiing freeheel is new challenge and a lot of fun.  For skiing hard stuff it wouldn't be my preference but you already have resort fixed heel gear for that.  Skiing scaled skis on hard groomers sucks anyway even if the ski/boot/binding had enough power.

And man, I went to engineering school and took the famous workloads.  I busted ass a couple days out the week but I had plenty of time to dick around.  At first it will be hard, but you'll adjust and learn how to manage your time.

And FWIW, skiing a setup like that isn't about getting the most vert in the minimum amount of time.  It's about having fun on skis for half a day.  You may ski 200' but it will be a better and different 200' than the 3000' you skied at WF.  Will be cheaper too.  Like I say, save money for good beer, weed and coffee.  Don't drink that ice shit and cheap swill that freshmen will be passing around.  Just gives you a hangover and makes you sick.  A couple nice beers and bowl and you'll have a relaxing evening.  Some good coffee to go with the morning toke.  Gotta balance yourself out...

Sorry, I don't really see how anyone can ski more if they burn 90% of the day going up.  You must not ski Whiteface often because once you get away from the base, there are rarely lift lines.  I don't ski it very often either, but enough to know where the lines usually form.  I'm sure Z will confirm my previous statement.

If you buy a season pass, you're able to ski all year, so it's not like the cost changes at all.  Unless you're saying I shouldn't get a pass and never ski at a resort all year.