Touring Set Up

Initial thought:
"Man, I want a pair of XCish ski's that I can make some descents on...  It looks like SBR has so much fun and I have access to a lot of similar terrain"  GD SBR is so fkn cool.

With a few minutes more research I found that I don't want XC skis, I want a pair of Tele skis with Tele bindings and boots.  But I don't' want to mess with skins... So I want a pair of scaled skis.. right?  I'm seeing a lot of articles on the Voile Vectors.  I'm imagining going out for an xc ski on snowmobile/hiking trails/bushwhacking just to get out of the house and if there's an open stand of trees being able to ski up and make some turns coming down without having to deal with skins.  I've got the split board for the big days with steep ascents when it's worth dealing with skins.  

There are too many goddamn options.

I'm open to your offers of used boots (10.5)
Also your thoughts for sizing, I'm 6'1 240lbs... I'm assuming 180s for the skis?  And don't' tell me to demo a bunch of shit, don't have the patience or time for that.
Bindings: recommendations... offers?

Look for a pair of skis where the scales go in..like the fischers.   They have much better glide.  I have  Karhu and the scales go out.  They give me better traction going up hill but the glide sucks.  When I ski the toll road I have to kick on the way down with the karhu, with the fischer they slide down.  

Hohoho... welcome to twilight zone.

A couple things you have to be honest with yourself about here and it will help you narrow down the skis immensely.

1.  What's the primary focus i.e. touring to make turns or turning to make tours?  There is a difference.

2.  How far do you think you will go i.e. are you going to be skiing 10-20 miles or 1-2 miles to do #1?  Makes a big difference.

3.  How good are you at the tele turn?  Be honest.  And by good I mean you could crank with your bedroom slippers on.

4.  How steep is the terrain you want to ski?  Less than a ski resort?  More than a ski resort?

If you find you're less willing to fall on your face, go long distances and want to make turns on steep shit then Vectors, switchbacks and Excursions/T4s on up.

If you want to go long distances into the wild, make turns when you need to of want to, and find the easier way down, then a true XCD ski + some leather boots is what you want.

Dude I'm 200lbs right now and I ski 190 to 200cm skis.  190 is short for me for this kind of thing.  185 is my absolute min.  You'll definitely want to go as long as you can.

tjf1967 wrote

Look for a pair of skis where the scales go in..like the fischers.   They have much better glide.  I have  Karhu and the scales go out.  They give me better traction going up hill but the glide sucks.  When I ski the toll road I have to kick on the way down with the karhu, with the fischer they slide down.

All the current Fischers and Madshus (Karhu replacement) have positive patterns (scale go out).

Both companies have done some work to make them glide better.  I still like the Fischers better, they climb better and glide great.

The newest incarnation of the Fischer S Bounds comes with a small kicker skin for steep stuff.  Jury is still out on whether that will be cool or a flop.  Personally, I love my S Bounds with just the scales.  My 98s can outclimb any other ski I've tried.  I know the Vector would outclimb them though.  It's got more width underfoot and way less camber.  It's not really a Nordic ski though.  It's more of a Alpine ski with scales.

Thanks for the quick replies!  I'm leaning toward something more beefy.

MikeK wrote

Hohoho... welcome to twilight zone.

A couple things you have to be honest with yourself about here and it will help you narrow down the skis immensely.

1.  What's the primary focus i.e. touring to make turns or turning to make tours?  There is a difference.

2.  How far do you think you will go i.e. are you going to be skiing 10-20 miles or 1-2 miles to do #1?  Makes a big difference.

3.  How good are you at the tele turn?  Be honest.  And by good I mean you could crank with your bedroom slippers on.

4.  How steep is the terrain you want to ski?  Less than a ski resort?  More than a ski resort?

If you find you're less willing to fall on your face, go long distances and want to make turns on steep shit then Vectors, switchbacks and Excursions/T4s on up.

If you want to go long distances into the wild, make turns when you need to of want to, and find the easier way down, then a true XCD ski + some leather boots is what you want.

Dude I'm 200lbs right now and I ski 190 to 200cm skis.  190 is short for me for this kind of thing.  185 is my absolute min.  You'll definitely want to go as long as you can.

1.) Primary Focus: Touring to tour with fun bonus' sections of downhill.  If I'm going out to actually rip bigger lines/trees with vert I'll just grab the split board and do the skinning thing.

2.) Miles: I don't want to be limited, I'm imagining lazy Sundays with the option to go our for a few hours with the dog and see what we come across.  I want to specify that I'm not looking to be one of those spandex guys.   I'll keep the same mindset that I keep while skinning "I'm out for a tour today, and if I'm lucky I'll get to make some turns going downhill"

3.) Not good at tele whatsoever.  Never tele'd. Have only alpined once, it's neat.  I totally plan on flopping around and getting snow down my pants and shirt.

4.)  Less angle than a ski resort- Again, if I'm doing known ski routes... that's what I have the split board for.  Family has camp in Stratford, Ferris Lake Wilderness is around the corner and it has some cool little shots that really don't seem worth doing with split board/skins all that jazz but would definitely be worth hitting with a light set up.  Also have a number of places in SE adks that deserve some exploring.  Who knows how steep I'll want to go, I don't want to limit myself...

I'm already leaning to the Vector side of things as it seems like I would be able to bring them to the ski mtn and learn correct techniques if I wanted to.

Another note:
I've been wanting to start alpine skiing for years now. Now that I'm over analyzing even more... Maybe it would make sense to go NTN with Vector?  From my lack of understanding I may guess that I could go NTN on the Vector, tour mode it for getting around, lock in for descent and then use the same boots for when I get an alpine set up?

Wife uses Scarpa Gia's for touring and alpine as they have the toe piece.  I guess I would be getting into some pretty shiny coins to fund this setup.

MikeK's got it right, but here's a data point that might contraindicate his advice on ski length: I'm 210 lbs. and have the 180 vector bc (that's the longest size they make) and love them for schwacking for turns and bc touring. I've used 'em on the Ray Brook and other trails around 13th Lake, tours up to 12 miles--I have no trouble keeping up with other xcd skiers on all manner of skis (whatever gains they make on flats are easily trumped by the vector's climbing and descending abilities). They're my favorite skis for anything up and down and I do also own karhu guides and older fishers with the cut-in scales--I only use those for flat-ish touring in bony conditions.
I really like the Voile Switchbacks for bindings. I usually ski them with Scarpa T2x boots. Check sierra trading post for affordable tele boots.
I've heard good things about other Voile BC skis--the Charger will be bigger and longer, but heavier. Dunno the specs on the V6 BC. The newer 95mm-waist fisher ski looks fun too.

Ohhh... based on your responses I'd say you are way more in the XCD category than Tele Lite category.

Good compromise for learning:

Soft plastic boot:  Scott Excursion - soft enough to kick and glide, stiff enough to make alpine turns on XCD skis

Mid width XCD ski:  Fischer S bound 98, Madshus Epoch, Rossi BC90 - I'd say 189 or 195 for you.

Binding:  Voile HD Mountaineer, 3 Pin Cable, or Hardwires.  You definitely want the pins for touring around.  A lot of people may say go for the Switchback but personally I don't think that's a good option unless you are climbing and descending only.  

If you want to hit ski trails in the ADKs, go schwacking around, and look for some glades and maybe even take them to a resort, that setup will do it all.

Vectors for the skis could do all that too with the same setup, but they'll be less ideal for touring around the ADKs.  Mostly overkill for a lot of stuff.

Also one other thing to keep in mind.  Mid fat xcd will be about half the cost of the Vector...

I haven't paid more than $200 for a new xcd ski.  

Oh, and maybe another thing that might help.  Go rent some xc skis and kick and glide around in some tracks.  Maybe take a lesson or two.  It's not hard to pick up but it will give you the technique to use on your BC gear.  Also take them down some hills.  You'll appreciate how good your XCD skis work!

The other thing is to maybe try some Tele or Alpine lessons at a resort.  XCD is really a different beast in practice, but some of the concept translates.

Mike, Timbly, TJF- Thank you for all of the input!

I know nothing about ski brands so I've been doing a lot of googling.  I appreciate the help

I love this thread. No matter how many times it comes up.

The guys I'm skiing with are (mostly) on bigger stuff like the Chargers or Vectors.  Steve Ovitt is the exception he's more old skool.

I bought the Rossi BC 110s because they are perfect for the skiing I do on our land and pretty darn sweet on stuff that is a little steeper like Raymond Brook.

The Scarpa T4s are to die for IMO.

http://nyskiblog.com/wide-waxless-backcountry-skis/

Here's a good summary of XCD-type skis from EYT:
Waxless Metal-edged Ski Roundup

Based on your description of the type of skiing you're envisioning, I'd say the Vectors / Chargers are a bit too beefy.  I'd think something like the Madhus Annum with T4 / Excursions.  Onion River puts together some decent package deals:
Backcountry ski packages

Check the sizing charts for your weight, but 180 sounds too short.

You're not far from the new Spruce Mountain trailhead in Corinth.  Once the snow gets here, it's got some decent potential for a quick, fun, close-to-home tour.  I put a write-up in the Today's Hike thread back in October, or check the write-up on my blog.  I'm thinking a nighttime headlamps tour would be awesome.

BC skis are like mountain bikes.  You'll get a million different opinions based on the users.

Some guys will tell you go rigid single speed.

Other will tell you to slack out and have 6 inches of travel front and rear.

In the end, all comes down to the terrain you plan on skiing and how much skill you have or plan on acquiring.

If you've never ridden a bike, then it might not be so easy to discern the differences.

Harv, I consider your setup lite Tele, not XCD.  Some consider the free tibia the freedom of XC.

You can blur the lines all over though... using a ski like the BC110 with T4s definitely pushes it more toward dh focus.  Taking the same ski and using a stout leather boot puts it more on the touring end.

When my wife demo'd the T4s, she was K+G like a robot.  When she got on the Excursions she was nice and fluid, almost like a leather boot.  She can't tele.  She can't even Alpine.  She wedge turns everything, and she can do it with those boots.  That's how much power they have.  And T4s are even stiffer!

Boots (stiffest on left, softest on right):



Get on a pair of XCD skis with leather boots.  You can't make a hockey stop in deep snow.  No 'effin way.  You don't have that kind of power.  Your only option is the telemark.  But it ain't for everyone.

Skis like the Fischers have real parabolic sidecut.  And goddamn it works.  For a beginner it might be hard to keep them straight on the flats.  They catch everything, you have to stride with them like you telemarking, being very careful with how you roll the ski and BOF pressure.

Fischer S Bounds on the right:



The Madshus skis are much more forgiving.  Soft, straighter cut, straighter tracking - less twitchy, but will still turn easily.  I think the Rossi is more like the Madshus but maybe not as finely tuned.

All my Madshus skis:

Chris, there's a lot of good info here.  I got the 180 Vector BCs last year.  I'm 175 lbs and because of the rocker they actually ski like they are shorter.  They are very light, so don't have any issues with the up and they are real fun and turny on the down.  But...they aren't XC skis.  
I did one tour with a bunch on metal edge XC stuff and I had to work to keep up (I was using T-1's), but when the narrow trail got steep going down and others were hanging on for dear life, I was able to crank of nice turns down a steep hiking trail.  
They all are a compromise at some point.  You just have to figure out your primary use.

Harvey wrote

I love this thread. No matter how many times it comes up.

The guys I'm skiing with are (mostly) on bigger stuff like the Chargers or Vectors.  Steve Ovitt is the exception he's more old skool.

I bought the Rossi BC 110s because they are perfect for the skiing I do on our land and pretty darn sweet on stuff that is a little steeper like Raymond Brook.

The Scarpa T4s are to die for IMO.

http://nyskiblog.com/wide-waxless-backcountry-skis/

Steve uses chargers, he saw the light and went new school!!

Chris wrote

...  GD SBR is so fkn cool.

Why, thank you.


Mike K pretty much summed it up. I agree that the Vector might be a bit of overkill for what you are thinking about doing. On the other hand, you could grow into it. Other skis to consider are the Madshus Annum (or Karhu Guide XCD if you can find used, same ski), or the Fischer S-Bound 112 (link to new version. Note there is a 125 as well). I ski the Chargers most of the time but do like my S-Bound 112s for more touring-oriented situations. They have more of an XC camber, so don't drag the scales too much when gliding.

Just to confuse things, if you went with a narrower ski (say, 75 mm waist like the Annum or less), you could always consider NNN BC boots and bindings. Lighter, more comfy, and cheaper than plastic tele boots. Still very appropriate for touring and light-duty turning. Remember, telemark is just a turn that can be done on any free heel gear.

For homework, you must read all 22 pages of the Charger Love thread.


EDIT: oops. I replied before I read page 2. MikeK has quite the quiver. You should just demo some of his skis!

Sick Bird Rider wrote

EDIT: oops. I replied before I read page 2. MikeK has quite the quiver. You should just demo some of his skis!

I'm available for birthdays and bar/bat mitzvahs.  And I kind of ski like a clown falling down a flight of stairs.

MikeK wrote

And I kind of ski like a clown falling down a flight of stairs.

You'd fit in well with our crew.

Sick Bird Rider wrote

MikeK wrote

And I kind of ski like a clown falling down a flight of stairs.

You'd fit in well with our crew.

I might join it soon.  I've made promises that if a certain someone becomes POTUS I'm going to head North of the border.

Skins on skis probably is way less hassle when compared to skins on spilt board....  

I like my voile vector http://store.mountaineer.com/product_p/vector2015.htm   and

Fritschi Diamir Vipec  http://store.mountaineer.com/Black_Diamond_Fritschi_Diamir_Vipec_12_Binding_p/vipec.htm

setup for tours like whales tail, wright peak ski trail marcy trail etc....  We kick wax from the parking lot and then skin.  its just so much more fun coming out from avy lake or anywhere with waxable skis.

you'd like a lighter weight AT boot for this type of setup, something like - http://store.mountaineer.com/product_p/oneu.htm

the voile is a great bc trail ski.  it's not a slide ski...  any lighter weight touring ski this would be true for, IMHO.

also IMHO since you never tele skied I'd be more inclined to go with the light weight touring setup.   shorter learning curve, lots more control on the downhill.  

also longer isn't better in the woods, especially the Adirondacks...  

dang you weight 240.  good thing wes never hit on your girl.  he would of been in for a world of hurt