Tragic

mattchuck2 wrote

kenneywallace wrote

I think ski helmets should be the law, like on bikes

Bike helmets are not the law (for adults), and it's a good thing, too. Studies have shown that helmet laws don't decrease head injury rates, but they do lead to a decline in participation (http://ipa.org.au/publications/2019/australia's-helmet-law-disaster)

I don't mind snark, but I hate smarm. And people who push their personal decisions on others are the smarmiest pricks I can think of.

Like I said. Sad story, but if you want to discuss helmet use, injury rates, sidecut, or whatever, maybe post up another helmet thread I can ignore. I'm sick of this BS coming up every time there's a ski death. I never post up when helmet wearers die skiing (which also happens a fair amount). I don't get any joy from running to the internet to proclaim that my side is right, and others are idiots. For some reason, though, the first thing that people ask when these things happen is "was he wearing a helmet?", then they smarmily tut-tut if he wasn't and make self aggrandizing statements like "I would never ride without my helmet" as if that does anything when you're traveling over 25mph (note: it doesn't - http://xgames.espn.go.com/snowboarding/article/8513198/ski-snowboard-head-injuries-increasing-us-helmet-use-new-study-reports).

Maybe you can just call a tragedy a tragedy and not try to use it to boost your own (apparently fragile) egos or force others to do everything exactly as you do them. All of your arguments for helmet use could be used for Spine protectors or giant rubberized Sumo suits (like NJ's picture used to be). Should we require everyone to ski in those things?

+1

I had a dog get hit and killed by a car ..... wonder if he woould've lived if he had a helmet on

There is such a thing as fate

Coach Z wrote

I totally  disagree.

To be clear I said "I feel safer."   I assume your comment means you don't feel safer in the Slides. I can't dispute that as "I feel" statements can't really be disputed.

You're right. I've been in the Slides three times and the snow was perfect.  Each time I skied them I started the day lapping the summit chair so I'd be as close as possible when they opened.  On those days I felt safer in the soft late morning snow in the Slides than I did (on free heels) on the coral reef on Sky at 9am.

You can't compare the Slides to backcountry. Nobody monitors the backcountry to determine when they are skiable. Nobody prevents you from going into the backcountry because conditions aren't ideal.

At the risk of getting off topic though risk assessment is actually relevant to this I think.

As I wrote in contributing to the slide guide if you can't comfortably ski empire or the tight tree lines in Cloudsplitter or SV  you should not attempt the slides.  Based on my teaching experience intermediates cannot do that comfortably and safely.

A few injuries to intermediates in the slides could make them open less or not at all.  That is why I feel that no one should be allowed to walk vs sidestep up slide in.  If you can't side step it you probably can't ski it.  I have no issue with patrol weeding out the chaff via talking to those going in or requiring Avy gear.

FWIW I can ski Empire. It could be my favorite piste at Whiteface.

If you ski empire and have skied the slides and routinely ski tight trees at Gore - you are not an intermediate. I think you are being modest.  It's the way over there head guy that I'm worried about getting in there.

We were talking about this at line up the other day.  Dropping the description and going to a number scale.  0 for a first timer.  4 thru 6 are intermediate.  7 advanced, 8 roughly a level 2 cert instructor, 9 an expert / level 3 cert, 10 truly a world class skier, racer, examiner, free rider etc.

Harv since you are comfortably and smoothly skiing something tight like empire you would be at min a 7 and probably an 8

mattchuck2 wrote

kenneywallace wrote

I think ski helmets should be the law, like on bikes

All of your arguments for helmet use could be used for Spine protectors or giant rubberized Sumo suits (like NJ's picture used to be). Should we require everyone to ski in those things?

I agree that helmets should be an individual choice (for adults), but I'm curious why some skiers choose to not wear a helmet?  Is it a comfort issue (although I find an itchy hat less comfortable than my helmet), helmets are too hot or too cold, restricted hearing, restricted range of head motion?  Or maybe it's an issue of feeling more independent and free without a helmet? Personally I don't find any of those to be an issue at all, but maybe it is for some skiers.  Or maybe there are other reasons.

Could someone articulate the reasons why a skier would choose to not wear a helmet for lift-served resort skiing?

Cost and fashion. Cheapskates buy a ten dollar hat instead of a hundred dollar helmet, and some don't want to muss their hair. I was just in Aspen, and it was funny watching the hatless on a snowy day. Some old guy with a great tan and his trophy wife at his side sure had perfect hair, though. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Trump. More like a swarthy Russian version.
I'm sensing that the latest generation of Bro Brah kids are making a statement that helmets are so, like, uncool, too. Can't fit those big Beats headphones around them.

Coach Z wrote

comfortably and smoothly skiing

All I said was I like it.

I think the problem with a three tiered system is there is too much distance between intermediate and expert.

You just can't put me and MC2 in the same category.

One to ten Matt is a 9 or a 10. I've never seen him overmatched.  I'm more of a 6 or 7.  That ain't modesty it's reality.

Question for you Coach, as this relates to what I was say before about feeling safer:

Where do you feel safer on a spring day: on Sky at 9am with cord that is frozen or in the slides at noon and 45 degrees?

No answer is right or wrong. I'm more comfortable in the second situation.

For the record, I'm a 10 baby   

First, just to prove this works:

I agree that spine protectors should be an individual choice (for adults), but I'm curious why some skiers choose to not wear a spine protector?  Is it a comfort issue (although I find an itchy hat less comfortable than my  spine protector),  spine protectors are too hot or too cold, restricted range motion?  Or maybe it's an issue of feeling more independent and free without a spine protector? Personally I don't find any of those to be an issue at all, but maybe it is for some skiers.  Or maybe there are other reasons.

Could someone articulate the reasons why a skier would choose to not wear a spine protector for lift-served resort skiing?

I don't generally wear a helmet for a couple of reasons:

- I haven't found one that I like the looks and comfort level of, and until I do, the minor safety benefit is negligible
- Whenever I wear my helmet, I feel more emboldened and do things that I wouldn't if I wasn't wearing one
- They look stupid with sunglasses
- They are too bulky and hot in the spring/summer, even with all vents/ear flaps removed.
- I don't hear as well with them on and this is annoying, especially because I don't hear well in the first place and hearing is kind of important in ski instructing
- I can't just shove it in a pocket when I want to take it off
- I don't like leaving a $120 helmet around the lodge (in the off chance that it gets stolen)
- Extra weight on BC trips
- Studies have shown that drivers give non helmeted bike riders a few inches more room than helmeted riders. I don't know if there's a similar effect at ski areas, but switching back and forth between helmet and no helmet, it certainly feels like it.

Now tell me why you don't wear a Spine Protector, Jeff!

I always feel safer on skyward than in the slides

We are eastern skiers Groomed frozen cord is what we do best.  I have a high degree of respect for the slides.  I think you must have been lucky enough to hit them on that magic weekend back in 2011 when they were user friendly.  That is not their norm state

I wear a helmet every day except in the spring when it's over 45 degrees

mattchuck2 wrote

I don't generally wear a helmet for a couple of reasons:

- I haven't found one that I like the looks and comfort level of, and until I do, the minor safety benefit is negligible
- Whenever I wear my helmet, I feel more emboldened and do things that I wouldn't if I wasn't wearing one
- They look stupid with sunglasses
- They are too bulky and hot in the spring/summer, even with all vents/ear flaps removed.
- I don't hear as well with them on and this is annoying, especially because I don't hear well in the first place and hearing is kind of important in ski instructing
- I can't just shove it in a pocket when I want to take it off
- I don't like leaving a $120 helmet around the lodge (in the off chance that it gets stolen)
- Extra weight on BC trips
- Studies have shown that drivers give non helmeted bike riders a few inches more room than helmeted riders. I don't know if there's a similar effect at ski areas, but switching back and forth between helmet and no helmet, it certainly feels like it.

Fair enough.  I think those are good reasons, even if they are mostly non-issues for me personally.  To me, the helmet has a potential safety benefit with few drawbacks, so I wear one.  Again, I'd never support any kind of requirement that all skiers wear helmets.

Now the fun part.

mattchuck2 wrote

Now tell me why you don't wear a Spine Protector, Jeff!

I'm not at all a "protect myself from all possible risks" or even a "protect my kids from all possible risks" type of guy.  Just because a piece of safety gear exists, it doesn't mean I would use it.  I don't bother with safety glasses when I weed-whack, or ear protection when I mow the lawn.  I am not exactly sure what a spine protector is, but if use of a spine protector was widely recommended for skiing and gained wide-spread acceptance among skiers, and it was relatively inexpensive, comfortable, didn't restrict my range of motion and detract from my enjoyment of skiing, I suppose I'd consider it.

OK, after typing the above ^^ I googled "spine protector skiing" and sure enough there are plenty of models designed for skiing that fit the affordable test (around $100), like this one.  I assume they're comfortable enough and all that.  So it really comes down to that "widely recommended" part.   I guess if they were widely recommended and I saw widespread adoption of these devices by skiers in my peer group (similar ability level, terrain preferences, etc.), I'd consider it.  Maybe that makes me a crowd follower.

So now let me ask, does anyone here  use one of these spine protectors?  Has anyone considered using one?

I can't stop thinking about this young guy who died Sunday for some reason. Today I skied by where it happened and just stopped and stared. We all say how tragic it is and all, then move on to argue about helmets or whatever. That's just human nature, life has to move on. I just think how his family is broken and can never be repaired. Like everyone I wish there was something that could have been done to prevent it, but what?

Putting aside the helmet debate for the moment, I'd like to ask a question.  I have not been to Whiteface.  I've read of at least two deaths on Excelsior in the past few years.  I've watched Youtube vids of the trail.  It has some drop-offs on the edge, but nothing that seems more precarious than others on blues at mountains I've been to.  Is it that the trail invites speed? And is often crowded?  

And this may be a loaded question:  do folks think Whiteface is more dangerous than other mountains?

Petronio

Harvey wrote

You just can't put me and MC2 in the same category.

One to ten Matt is a 9 or a 10. I've never seen him overmatched.  I'm more of a 6 or 7.  That ain't modesty it's reality.

You are correct sir.  Mattchuck just made PSIA Nordic Dev  Team. Shocker!  Now if he could just smooth out them stem christies on his snowblades.

Just Sayin'.

Ski You On The Hill.

mattchuck2 wrote

I don't generally wear a helmet for a couple of reasons:

- I haven't found one that I like the looks and comfort level of, and until I do, the minor safety benefit is negligible

Wear a helmet or don't wear a helmet - it is up to you - but the part I bolded from your post is false. Wearing a helmet is not a minor safety benefit. It is a major safety benefit.

I'm not one to preach to people about what they should do.  I just know me and mine will always use helmets.  As for how much of a safety benefit they can provide, Natasha Richardson always comes to mind.  Helmet would have saved her life, as it wasn't a high speed head on tree event.

telerider wrote

Tragic accident indeed. I can speak from personal experience regarding the benefits can provide.  My helmet saved my life about 5 years ago while teaching at Mtn Creek.  I was helping a student who fell off Sugar Lift by staying on the lift too long and before I could get her up and on her feet, the liftie started the lift.  This fixed grip lift came around and struck me in the side of my head with the metal corner of the seat bench.  It put a 2" gash through my helmet, blew my eye apart with the pure force of the blow and I had to go for CT scan.  I doubt I would be here, or in the (relatively) normal condition I'm in if I had no helmet on that day.  It's not always about skiing per se.  It's like motorcycling or bicycling, why would you not wear a helmet?  My 2 cents, which those who know me know I have a lot of.... (BTW, yelling at the clouds long and hard enough finally paid of last week).  Live Long and Prosper my vulcan.

Wow, that was bad of an injury from being hit by the chair.  I'm glad you're ok.  That lift is really slow too.  Imagine how bad it would have been if it was the Granite Lift.  That thing is much faster.  I always wear a helmet since I am 15 and it is the law in NJ where Creek is.  I have had many times when I get on the South Lift where someone grabs onto the safety bar and knocks it down on me unexpectedly.  It has hit me square in the head many times, and without a helmet, it would have hurt much more.  I had a very bad misload on the Vernon Triple last month.  I was snowboarding and I had to load the lift with a big guy and his wife.  I am relatively heavy as well, so we had to squeeze in to fit.  Our boards got caught in each other and I couldn't get mine straight when I sat down.  The toe-side edge dug in and pulled me off the chair onto the ground.  My head hit the seat when I went down.  Without it, that accident would have been much worse.  I have never had any comfort issues with my helmet and it has sure saved me from some injuries, so I will continue to wear one when I ski or ride.

x10003q wrote

Wearing a helmet is not a minor safety benefit. It is a major safety benefit.

Not really. At the speed I normally ski, all of the scientific literature says that it really doesn't matter if I'm wearing a helmet or not. And when I'm not going that fast, I'm about as likely to hit my head as I am getting out of my car or walking into the lodge.

Not saying accidents don't happen. Just saying accidents also happen elsewhere and nobody wears a helmet all the time.