WF would be better without the union

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WF would be better without the union

ausable skier
This post was updated on .
Its pouring in the Daks today and that means the Wilmington Trail that was marginal yesterday will now be toast.  It took over a week of snowmaking to open that trail and God and Ted Blazer only know much money.  While i think that it was not a good decision to blow it management had themselves stuck.  They can't just look at the weather and say lets not make snow now and wait for better weather long term.  They can't just lay off the snowmakers for a week or two and then bring them back because of the union so since snow needed to be made somewhere WT was blown and that budget is now wasted.

What would be best for the skiing public is to have WF be non union.  There I said it.  I am not going to get into another political debate on this.  The same folks that love them some birds probably are pro union and I do not want a repeat of that.  This is not a pro or con union discussion - its a what would be best for WF as a ski area and for its skiing public. I'm not pro or con union - I'm Pro Whiteface.

WF, Gore and Bell are facing stiff odds to start with.  They are the only unionized ski areas in the US.  This means they have significant higher costs and operating restrictions imposed on them by the union.  The biggest impact to the quality of the skiing is in snowmaking and lift ops.  A normal ski area could schedule snow makers when things look good and them cut back their hours when the weather does not cooperate.  A few weeks ago on a Saturday it was 35+ degrees but there were the snow makers headed up the hill to sit in a shack because they were scheduled to work.  A private ski area would have told them not to come to work that day and saved the budget for later in the season when temps would allow snowmaking.  WF can't do that and ends up having a hard date at which snow making stops regardless of weather or the product for the skiing public.  The snow makers themselves would end up with by a longer employment season.

I hear Gore skiers complaining about lifts running mid week.  That again is the unions restrictions on management to blame.  A private non union ski area would hire extra staff but have some of them on call for days that end up looking to be busier.  

The kids kampus new building at WF was as drawn up and budgeted  larger but because WF had to use their union labor the project had to be scaled back because the the extra costs and slower speeds of work.  Orda would be more profitable non union and it would then get to reinvest those profits in capital improvements.  Skiers and the NYS tax payer would benefit.
A true measure of a person's intelligence is how much they agree with you.
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Re: WF would be better without the union

tjf1967
This post was updated on .
OMG talk about Monday morning quarterbacking.  Willmington trail is NOT being washed away.  

When I used to wine like you my dad used to say.  Son if you dont like it go to work for the company.  Work your way up to the top and then you can make those decisions.  Until then quit your wining.  I am assuming most of your rant is because.


NOAH little help
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Re: WF would be better without the union

Noah John
In reply to this post by ausable skier
TJ I'm not gonna waste my time with this guy.  I read this far into his post and then quit:

ausable skier wrote
I am not going to get into another political debate on this.  The same folks that love them some birds probably are pro union and I do not want a repeat of that.
So he doesn't want to have a conversation.  He just wants to throw bombs, perhaps offend a bunch of people and then run away.  He's a gutless coward.  Forums like this are a marketplace of ideas; your ideas either compete effectively or they "go out of business".  What he doesn't want to repeat is a demonstration that while he can state a proposition, he sure as hell can't defend it.  I tried to make my peace with this dude.  I thought that once we both drew a deep breath we might be able to have an interesting conversation.  But he's not interested in anything but drive-by shootings.  Going forward I'll only stop ignoring him long enough to make fun of him.  He brought it on himself.

BTW, do we know who this guy is?
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Re: WF would be better without the union

tjf1967
I didn't get much further.

I am guessing we know him.  
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Re: WF would be better without the union

ausable skier
In reply to this post by Noah John
My point is to have a discussion on this topic without making it political.  If you don't want to do that fine - go ahead and make fun of me.  If you want to join the discussion Please educate me on how the union makes WF and Gore a better place to ski - maybe I'm missing something.  

This forum is a great place to share info and ideas and Harv has made all welcome.  I've been involved for quite a while.  Seems odd that you and your couple of buddies act they you own the place after 34 posts
A true measure of a person's intelligence is how much they agree with you.
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Re: WF would be better without the union

campgottagopee
Who peed in AS cheerios this morning....post counting..LMAO
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Re: WF would be better without the union

ausable skier
campgottagopee wrote
Who peed in AS cheerios this morning
mother nature is peeing on our snow
A true measure of a person's intelligence is how much they agree with you.
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Re: WF would be better without the union

tjf1967
In reply to this post by ausable skier
Fact: they can and do lay snomakers off whenever they want to.
Fact: W trail is not washed away.

I would comment on more but that is a far as I could get.  
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Re: WF would be better without the union

Face4Me
In reply to this post by ausable skier
Ok, first, in the interests of full disclosure, generally speaking, I have a negative opinion of labor unions, so I'm not trying to "stand up" for them. Also, I agree, this forum is not the place to discuss the pros and cons of them.

As far as your comments about the Wilmington Trail, I suspect the decision to open that trail had a LOT more to do with marketing and advertising, than with keeping workers busy. For advertising purposes, and to attract visitors, it's all about the number of trails and lifts open. By adding the Wilmington Trail, the conditions report adds another trail, another lift, and another "mountain". The Wilmington Trail is also a popular trail with many Whiteface skiers.

If you don't believe that trail count is considered to be a very important marketing tool, just compare a 1987 Whiteface trail map to the current one. With the exception of the Lookout Mountain addition, the physical layout of trails is very much the same, perhaps one or two little additions here and there, yet the NUMBER of trails listed on the current map is double the 1987 number. It's just better marketing to advertise 86 trails rather than 40.

Next, I've been told, and I certainly don't know whether this is true or not, that Whiteface is not allowed to draw water from the Ausable River after February 28 (29th in a leap year?). If this is true, then the amount of time "lost" from President's Day (week) until the end of February is fairly negligible in the grand scheme. In addition, anyone who skis at Whiteface on a regular basis, knows that after President's week, the crowds diminish significantly, and the vast majority of skiers after that point are season pass holders. You need only walk through Lake Placid on any weekend evening after President's week to see additional evidence of the reduction of visitors. From a budgeting point of view, it makes the most sense to spend your money at "peak" times, trying to cater to the greatest number of customers.

While you could make the point that season pass holders are "getting the shaft" because of this, I think you have to keep in mind that ORDA's goal is to generate economic activity within the "Olympic" region. A family of four visiting for a weekend, spending two nights in a hotel, eating five to seven meals at restaurants, purchasing day use lift tickets and ski rentals, buying souvenirs and equipment probably generates a lot more economic activity for the region than one area resident buying a season pass and brown-bagging their lunch when they go to the mountain. ORDA is trying to attract visitors ... I think it's that simple. Whether you agree or disagree with the decisions management makes in trying to do that is another story. Personally, I think Bruce has been doing a good job since he took over. Overall, I think things have been much better at Whiteface than they were a few years ago, and that's with a reduced budget from Albany. That's not to say that I agree with, or like, everything they do, but I think they're doing a pretty good job overall.

To place the "blame" for poor conditions, questionable lift operations, etc., squarely on the labor union is ... once again, conveniently simplistic.

In reality, there IS a simple reason for this season's problems: The Weather. If it had been 25 degrees with snow instead of rain all through December and January, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
It's easy to be against something ... It's hard to be for something!
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Re: WF would be better without the union

campgottagopee
In reply to this post by ausable skier
ausable skier wrote
My point is to have a discussion on this topic without making it political.  If you don't want to do that fine - go ahead and make fun of me.  If you want to join the discussion Please educate me on how the union makes WF and Gore a better place to ski - maybe I'm missing something.  
IMO, the union has NOTHING to do with making WF/Gore better place to ski.

What makes WF the best in the east????? The mountain and it's people...to hell with the rest of it
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Re: WF would be better without the union

Noah John
In reply to this post by Face4Me
Face4Me wrote
Whiteface is not allowed to draw water from the Ausable River after February 28 (29th in a leap year?).
Yeah but see that's more regulatory BULLSHIT!!!  All those downstate Greenies, NYT reading liberals are more concerned with a fish (a friggin' Fish!!!!!) than they are with my God given right to pave the world.  (That's in the Bible.)

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Re: WF would be better without the union

Face4Me
Noah John wrote
Face4Me wrote
Whiteface is not allowed to draw water from the Ausable River after February 28 (29th in a leap year?).
Yeah but see that's more regulatory BULLSHIT!!!  All those downstate Greenies, NYT reading liberals are more concerned with a fish (a friggin' Fish!!!!!) than they are with my God given right to pave the world.  (That's in the Bible.)

Come on ... is that really necessary???
It's easy to be against something ... It's hard to be for something!
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Re: WF would be better without the union

Noah John
Face4Me wrote
Noah John wrote
Face4Me wrote
Whiteface is not allowed to draw water from the Ausable River after February 28 (29th in a leap year?).
Yeah but see that's more regulatory BULLSHIT!!!  All those downstate Greenies, NYT reading liberals are more concerned with a fish (a friggin' Fish!!!!!) than they are with my God given right to pave the world.  (That's in the Bible.)

Come on ... is that really necessary???
  Was it really that bad?
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Re: WF would be better without the union

Face4Me
Noah John wrote
Was it really that bad?
Was it that bad? No.

Was it necessary? No.
It's easy to be against something ... It's hard to be for something!
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Re: WF would be better without the union

Noah John
One could argue that none of this is necessary.  But while we're on the topic of necessity, was it necessary for him to troll with "The same folks that love them some birds probably are pro union...".  

If you must play forum policeman, at least do so even handedly.
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Re: WF would be better without the union

tjf1967
In reply to this post by Face4Me
I see.  A.S.  signature sais it all.

He wrote a lot of stuff that is WRONG.    How do you have a discussion when the source of that discussion is something completely made up.


I will give you an example.


I think faceplant would be a much better father if he was not having sex out side of his marriage.    


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Re: WF would be better without the union

Face4Me
In reply to this post by Noah John
Noah John wrote
... But while we're on the topic of necessity, was it necessary for him to troll with "The same folks that love them some birds probably are pro union...".  
No, it wasn't, but you had already pointed that out.

It's easy to be against something ... It's hard to be for something!
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Re: WF would be better without the union

Funky Polak
In reply to this post by Noah John
Noah John wrote
One could argue that none of this is necessary.  But while we're on the topic of necessity, was it necessary for him to troll with "The same folks that love them some birds probably are pro union...".  

If you must play forum policeman, at least do so even handedly.

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Re: WF would be better without the union

tjf1967
Flunky when you coming to whiteface?  We miss you.
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Re: WF would be better without the union

campgottagopee
In reply to this post by Face4Me
Face4Me wrote
Noah John wrote
Was it really that bad?
Was it that bad? No.

Was it necessary? No.
I thought it was rather clever
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