What is an "Expert"...

Hi, my name is Jeff and I am not an expert skier.
I consider myself competent or perhaps even advanced,  but I spend plenty of time every day I ski washing out my turns, getting thrown off balance, or just being lazy and letting the terrain push me around so I look like a dork.
But I don't let my lack of expertness stop me from enjoying and pursuing expert terrain, and every once in a while I dance down something gnarly and even make it look good.
Never had a lesson or was coached, the only way I learned was by skiing with better skiers (of which there have always been plenty).  Can you be an "expert" without formal instruction?  I'm thinking no.  Since I never learned "technique," I can't teach my kids proper technique either.  That doesn't stop us from having fun.  I am, however, happy to provide frequent pointers to my wife about how she can improve her technique.
Competent, comfortable, safe... Yes.  Avid... For sure.  Expert... No.

Defining an "expert" skier is as difficult as defining what a "fat" ski is today.  They mean something different to everybody.  It's more of an opinion, as evidenced by the various replies so far, than an absolute.  You know what they say, opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one.

Humility is a word I'll throw out. What does that have to do with being an "expert"?  Nothing, but it is a good character trait for all people, "expert" skiers included.  The earlier one learns that in life the better.  Just sayin'.

Interestingly, many of the folks that contribute to this forum who I suspect are expert skiers haven't weighed in on this thread.  Not much point, I suppose.  However, I've got time on the train and, seeing as I like to pontificate and here myself talk, I'm happy to give you my personal take on an "expert" skier.

To me being an "expert" skier implies the complete package.  Someone who is technically proficient in making any and all turn styles, be it a carved turn, a schmear, a skid (long or short radius), hop/jump turn, kick turn.  You name it, they should have it in their bag of tricks.  Why?  

That has to do with my next "criteria", which is the ability to comfortably and confidently ski any kind of terrain, in all kinds of conditions.  Cruising resort groomers, steeps (rocky chutes, bowls, tree shots, drops/cliffs/waterfalls), glades, bumps, gates....on groomed cord, hardpack, ice, thin cover, in powder or chop/crud/crust, spring conditions (from corn to mashed potato).  You name it, they should be able to handle it.

In my opinion an "expert" should be able confidently to go just about anywhere, in just about any condition.  Why the just about?  Because discretion is the better part of valor.  I think one can be an expert even if they don't/can't charge 60 degree chutes on wind blown hardpack or huck 25 foot plus cliffs.  That's the territory of ski "gods" and legends.

Another "criteria" I'd apply is familiarity and comfort with the hill and your equipment.  Respect for the mountain, route finding, side slipping steep and sketchy slopes....those kinds of things are necessary for an "expert" to be able to go just about anywhere and ski just about anything.

Let me touch on something I keep adding.  The confidently and comfortably bit.  It's not enough just to make it down expert terrain.  I believe you have to be able to ski it, not just survive it, to be an "expert".  

I think it's a pretty high bar to be considered an "expert" skier.  

One of the hallmarks of the expert skiers that I know (and I do not consider myself an expert) is leadership. The expert skiers that I know patiently wait for other members of their group, suggest alternative routes for non-expert skiers and never encourage anyone into terrain that might be over there head. A true expert does this in a humble, unassuming style.

<quote author="louie.mirags">
It really pays to get out of the backseat though.  Much less tiring

sig wrote

i hear you and wish I could . I rarely make it past 2:00 and even that is becoming a struggle.

I don't really think very much about my skiing and levels or whatever.

But...I think a true expert is strong, fluid, and smooth on all types of terrain and in all conditions. They make it look easy.

Being good on groomers sure doesn't make an expert.

raisingarizona wrote

But...I think a true expert is strong, fluid, and smooth on all types of terrain and in all conditions. They make it look easy.

There's a man of brevity, a test I usually fail!  Well put, and your definition is usually where I fall short.

I've had a nice ski life to date over my 30+ years of experience.  I'm certain my "accomplishments" pale in comparison to what other contributors here have done.

Still.......I've raced (poorly, but I did, which involved some low level coaching). I've had some formal and informal instruction.  I've had the opportunity to ski A LOT of Vermont and NY hills.  I've had the good fortune to ski out west (one trip).  I've (finally) skied Tuckerman's (Chute, Left Gully).  I can ski anything in bounds at any resort and have challenged myself on the likes of the Slides, the Front Four, Castlerock, and Paradise (MRG).  I'm proficient in the bumps and I love skiing trees.  I'll huck small cliffs and waterfalls.  (bear with me here past my f'ing Superman leaping tall buildings BS, I have a point besides tooting my horn, I promise)   I've earned east coast turns on the Chin at Stowe and hiked at 13,000 feet in Colorado.  I've skied steep, rocky chutes (East Wall A Basin) and 50+ degree slopes (Lake Chutes Breck).  I like to think I've done more than just get down or survive most of all those things, but not always.  I'm venturing away from the resorts and into the BC on AT gear.  

I've done a lot and I'm pretty confident and comfortable in most places.  

Yet, I sure as heck don't fancy myself an "expert", not by my definition, or 'Zona's succinct observation.  There is a lot out there I don't look "easy" on, or am unwilling and unable to even think about challenging myself on because I know I don't have the skills.

I also wanted to say that I bet Bode Miller would likely crush us in the bumps too.

sig wrote

people are too caught up with there form. put your skis on and go have some fun. I have skied with people who could rip down the mnt, but put a bump or tree In front of them and they cannot ski it. they have great form and look like experts but in reality are just advanced intermediates. I have never taken a lesson in my 40 years of skiing. I have awful form, spend most of the day in the back seat and do not own a pair of poles that are not bent. the poles bend from constantly trying to recover from bad form . I put a lot a value in the quote about skiing good conditions. this defiantly builds confidence and allows you to push yourself and become and expert.

 
I like this post. I do think a good background in technical skiing helps a lot but sometimes it gets to the point that skiing turns into this carbon copied robotic exercise. I'm a huge fan of individualistic style too.

billyymc wrote

Sure, if you define expert however you feel like it everyone can be an expert. Everyone gets a trophy.

HA! I have a participation award that says so.

I gotta say my kid has been conditioned into this kind of thinking. She loves getting awards and trophies but when it's real and she has to work hard to succeed she often just moves on because she doesn't want to put forth the effort.

It drives me nuts and I'm constantly trying to teach her that the best things in life take the most work but this parenting thing doesn't always work out perfectly!

My older brother is an engineer....and completely overanalyzes his skiing, as I s'pose most engineers might be inclined to do.  Every second of every run is spent working, analyzing and trying to improve his turns.  His idea of fun.

I agree, strong technique is important, but you get the technique strong so that you can let them go, have some fun, and just ski.

I'm sure I'm past the intermediate stage but as i get older, I find it harder to distinguish between expert and just advanced. I think you need to recognize that there is a wide range. Beginners and Intermediates are easy to identify. Advanced/expert covers a much more diverse set of skiers, though maybe smaller in total numbers. There are experts and then there are people that take it to a whole different level. Maybe you don't have to be able to zipper down Outer Limits like an Olympian. I can ski Outer Limits but I for sure don't look great doing it. I think if you can ski the whole mountain in all conditions in a safe and competent manor, can read the snow and slope in order to choose the right tactic/technique, can coach lesser skiers down a tough pitch and can recognize when its appropriate to pull the horns in, based on what's happening around you, that's when you can call yourself an expert. I think the closer you get, the more you study the sport, the more you learn and practice or try to teach it to somebody else, the more you realize how much you don't know and how much more there is to learn.

JTG4eva! wrote

My older brother is an engineer....and completely overanalyzes his skiing, as I s'pose most engineers might be inclined to do.  Every second of every run is spent working, analyzing and trying to improve his turns.  His idea of fun.

I agree, strong technique is important, but you get the technique strong so that you can let them go, have some fun, and just ski.

When I was in the Navy on a Sub we called this "nuking" it.  We had Nuclear Engineers and they were so smart that they would think too much about common sense scenarios.  Whenever something as simple as making turns while skiing gets over anaylzed it can be referred to as nuking it.  Just the way some people's brains are wired lol

Better him than me!  

As a Navy guy you might appreciate what my brother does.  He's with a government agency and is responsible for running shock trials on Navy ships.  Blow up 1,000 pounds of TnT or whatever next to a ship and see how it fucks with the electrical systems.

louie.mirags wrote

JTG4eva! wrote

My older brother is an engineer....and completely overanalyzes his skiing, as I s'pose most engineers might be inclined to do.  Every second of every run is spent working, analyzing and trying to improve his turns.  His idea of fun.

I agree, strong technique is important, but you get the technique strong so that you can let them go, have some fun, and just ski.

When I was in the Navy on a Sub we called this "nuking" it.  We had Nuclear Engineers and they were so smart that they would think too much about common sense scenarios.  Whenever something as simple as making turns while skiing gets over anaylzed it can be referred to as nuking it.  Just the way some people's brains are wired lol

Analysis Paralysis.  It's common among our breed.

that is pretty awesome!
 

JTG4eva! wrote

Better him than me!  

As a Navy guy you might appreciate what my brother does.  He's with a government agency and is responsible for running shock trials on Navy ships.  Blow up 1,000 pounds of TnT or whatever next to a ship and see how it fucks with the electrical systems.

JTG4eva! wrote

My older brother is an engineer....and completely overanalyzes his skiing, as I s'pose most engineers might be inclined to do.  Every second of every run is spent working, analyzing and trying to improve his turns.  His idea of fun.

By far the most painful teaching experience is working with an engineer.  They have to understand every little detail and want to know exactly what angle a given body part needs to be at.  Then there is the mind numbing topic of how much weight each ski needs to have on it that engineers always seem to ask about. When you start talking weighting nothing ever good happens in peoples skiing IMO.  

While its important to technically understand what to do and why eventually you need to ski it and feel it to ultimately own it.

I think the others have listed many of the attributes of experts.  I especially liked RA's comments.  I also would add that experts have a confidence to their skiing that they can modify the skills as needed to adjust to any slope, terrain, snow condition or situation and ski it effortlessly.

snoloco wrote

I consider myself an expert skier by eastern standards.  I mostly rip groomers at high speeds, but given the chance, I ski other types of terrain as well.  If there's trees or bumps available and in good condition, I'm going to ski them.  I don't necessarily agree with the part that you have to ski all types of terrain perfectly.

Expert has no geographical exceptions, no conditions exceptions , no exceptions. Expert is exclusive to those that RIP anywhere, anytime, all the time.

Coach Z wrote

By far the most painful teaching experience is working with an engineer.

Can we keep going with the stereotypes?  I have a few about salesmen...

PSIA uses a 1-9 scale for self assessing what level you are for purposes of grouping lessons

I think Vail does this very well and so I am posting how they describe the levels - at a level 9 you can start thinking of calling yourself an expert.  The saying goes if you get a true 8 to show up for a lesson you give them a jacket and a job.

http://www.vail.com/ski-and-snowboard-school/assess-your-ability-level.aspx#/Advanced

Passing the PSIA level 3 skiing exam certainly is a expert achievement though I am not in any way saying you have to be an instructor to ski at an expert level.  Going thru it and the Movement assessment skills required to be a level 3 does definitely give the eye to spot expert skiing when you see it.  A number of forum users I've seen ski are certainly experts such as HPD, TJF and Scotty Jack.

That below video gives you an idea of what PSIA is looking for in a L3 cert skier.  All these skiers are expert in my eye

https://vimeo.com/22526882

Harv can you fix this embed plesae

<nabble_embed><iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/22526882" width="500" height="281" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe> <p><a href="https://vimeo.com/22526882">PSIA-RM Veriable Terrain</a> from <a href="https://vimeo.com/psiarm">PSIA-RM-AASI</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p></nabble_embed>

There always will be something to improve on, new challenges and better skiers.  

PSIA has another scale they use to score exams and tryouts with a 4 being a level 3 cert, a 7 is an examiner, a 9 a National Demo team member, and a 10 being Linsey Vonn, Ted Liegty or as they say God on a good day.  There always is a better skier out there unless you are Vonn.

Coach Z wrote

PSIA uses a 1-9 scale for self assessing what level you are for purposes of grouping lessons

I think Vail does this very well and so I am posting how they describe the levels - at a level 9 you can start thinking of calling yourself an expert. The saying goes if you get a true 8 to show up for a lesson you give them a jacket and a job.

http://www.vail.com/ski-and-snowboard-school/assess-your-ability-level.aspx#/Advanced

Passing the PSIA level 3 skiing exam certainly is a expert achievement though I am not in any way saying you have to be an instructor to ski at an expert level. Going thru it and the Movement assessment skills required to be a level 3 does definitely give the eye to spot expert skiing when you see it. A number of forum users I've seen ski are certainly experts such as HPD, TJF and Scotty Jack.

That below video gives you an idea of what PSIA is looking for in a L3 cert skier. All these skiers are expert in my eye

Harv can you fix this embed please

PSIA-RM Veriable Terrain from PSIA-RM-AASI on Vimeo.

There always will be something to improve on, new challenges and better skiers. PSIA has another scale they use to score exams and tryouts with a 4 being a level 3 cert, a 7 is an examiner, a 9 a National Demo team member, and a 10 being Linsey Vonn, Ted Liegty or as they say God on a good day. There always is a better skier out there unless you are Vonn.

FIFY Big Guy!!