Whiteface Cliff Notes

Me and the family are making our first-ever pilgrimage to Whiteface on Friday.  We are so excited to use our Gore passes and explore a new mountain.  Since we are clueless about Whiteface, we don't want to spend the majority of the day trying to figure such a big and varied mountain out.  We are looking for suggestions for what runs/woods to ski?  Deb and I tele and our son can ski most everything at Gore, sans Rumor (yet).  We look forward to your expert guidance and advice?

Thanks!

Telerider

From what I've heard nothing on Whiteface (slides excluded) is as steep as the Rumor, not quite anyway.  That's entirely heresay on my part--I've never been down the Rumor nor all the black diamonds on Whiteface.  But as I practically live on Whiteface Mountain, here are some cliff notes, and here's the trail map so you have a clue what I'm talking about:

http://www.whiteface.com/files/public/WhitefaceTrailMap.pdf

First off, here's some general stuff: Whiteface likes to pretend it's an intermediates' mountain, as Gore actaully is.  It isn't.  Many of Whiteface's blue sqaures equal Gore's blacks.  And when Whiteface's blue squares are icy, as they often are, they are easily worse than any black I've been down on Gore.
Also, on days with wind holds, check out the trail map for chairs that can get you up to where you want to go.  One of the lifts above mid-station will get you to the top of Little Whiteface and the Freeway chair is good for getting to the black diamonds on the really bad days.  (And you can get to it by the Bear chair.)

The trails:

Face Lift area:
Upper Valley is almost always a nightmare.  As it steepens on the right, there is almost always an ice sheet stretching most of the way down the trail.  It's generally not obvious until you're making turns on that side of the trail, but it's not fun.  If you want to take a run down, the far left is the best, the middle alright.
Lower Valley can be a mad house too.  Unlike Gore, all of Whiteface's trails lead into the same place: Upper and Lower Valley.  It's just generally not a good place to be.  
River Run is a nice chute to get off Lower Valley and sometimes has moguls and powder.  However, on bad days, there are some strange bare spots and it's kind of like a rumble strip lower down with some real ice sometimes.
Burton's is a good escape too.
Wolf is a bordercross/skiercross and you can check out the air bag from over here.
There's a mini park after the main headwall of Lower Valley on the left under the Face Lift.

Little Whiteface:
Excelsior is the most popular trail down and almost always your best bet down on an icy day.  It can be crowded, but it's usually managable.  (Oh and the long flat off the gondola to get to Excelsior is sometimes just one big ice sheet--watch it.)
Lower Northway often has some excellent displays of ice sheets on the right.  Watch out for people coming down off Upper Northway and Essex.  
All of Little Whiteface's black diamonds have a tendency to be icy.  If you check the posted conditions sheets, they should tell you were snowmaking is.  Sometimes they will just pound guns on Mountain Run and it will be fantastic.  
Essex is a good indicator of the conditions on the black diamonds and it can have some nice moguls sometimes.  It's a good test of what things are like--some days it's all ice and you want to cut out onto Excelsior on the left.
Wilderness and Mackenzie often have moguls.
Empire is very narrow.
Thurway and Draper's are usually taken over by racers.

The summit:
Upper Skyward is incredible on a good day (headwall is steepest part), but can be one heck of an ice sheet.  Lower Skyward generally has better conditions and moguls.
Paron's will get windswept worse than Skyward sometimes.
The Follies can be extremely windy, but offer amazing views of Lake Placid (the actual lake) on good days.  (You can sometimes see Lake Champlain in the other direction from the summit or even the gondola.)
John's Bypass is, in my opinion, the most terrifying trail on the entire mountain.  People book it down that thing but it gets windswept in a funny way that leave ice sheets on all the downhills (it's mostly flat).  It also curves and slopes in funny ways and has some nice cliffs on the side that you don't realize are there.
Victoria can be pretty nice sometimes (and would certainly be a black at Gore) but is usually icy.  It generally has moguls at least on the left.  You can get to Victoria from the gondola--just watch it if you take John's Bypass.

Lookout:
Wilmington is more than two miles long.  If you're a skilled skier, then I wouldn't worry about this, but intermediates sometimes get on it and realize it's much more than they can handle.  It can get very moguled and icy, but it is generally a fantastic trail.
Lookout Below: check this one out from the Face Lift.  It's amazing how steep it looks--and it actually is very steep.  It generally has giant whales in addition to moguls and you want to think twice before going down if it's even skied off.
Hoyt's High just got snowmaking, but doesn't have the greatest grooming, apparently, so it sounds like it's going to stay skied off moguls and whales.  

Glades:
The blue glades are the only ones you can generally expect to be open--and I don't believe those are even open now.  The Sugar Valley Glades are the greatest part of Whiteface in my opinion, but at least the lower part (the only part usually open) probably don't deserve the double black.  I've never been in the Cloudsplitter Glades, but I believe those are pretty steep.  10th Mountain Division I've only taken a peak in--it's an easy in and out if you want to check them out off Lower Northway.  Of the black diamond glades, the High Country ones are the most likely to be open and are usually pretty good--and easy to get to from Excelsior by On Ramp.

Ok, looking bad on that I know I said basically EVERY trail has the tendency to be icy...and that can be the case.  But that's pretty much worse case...as one would hope with people like me practically living on it.

Gondi first thing down excelsior.  Back up gondi down approach to mountain run to lower valley. Gondi back up. Essex to victoria over to summit chair(should be spinning by then).  Parons back to the summit chair.  Skyward/Upper and Lower down to the lookout chair.   Hoyts down to the lookout chair and back up.  If you like what you see on lookout hit it if not Willmington trail.

That will take you to about lunch time.  

From there evaluate which of the three mountain you liked best and head back to that area.   High Speed quad gets you to the Summit and Lookout lift if the gondi line is long.

^ this ftw, as adjusted for any snowmaking gun pow slaying. we usually check out the bumps somwhere in there too - vic or mac? will be up saturday with my son (possibly sunday too if we don't do the loj hike) if anyone wants to hook up  for a few turns

So weird how people ski mountains so much differently. I never use the Gondi when I'm at Whiteface.

I park over in Kids Kampus because it's usually easy to get a close spot. Then I make my way over to the quad, ride that up, warmup run down to the mountain run chair, then I lap that for a while - mountain run, wilderness, Mac, thruway, etc. then I head down Draper's Drop or some such trail and take it to the summit chair or the lookout chair or whatever I'm feeling.

I don't like the Gondola because I don't really like any of the trails off of it (except for Empire, which isn't always open). Essex is okay, but it's usually dark and icy. I also always seem to get stuck with weirdos in that Gondola... Different vibe then the Gore gondola (Don't ask me to explain this. I can't).

OMG! I dont know what to say yet.  Need to process and maybe come back later.

I know, I am trying to process all this tremendous information myself. Thanks so much for such for all the detailed info!  I promise to give anyone interested my 2 cents on how to best ski Gore depending on weather and conditions/what's open...You all rock!

I think that the description of ice and wind are a bit over stated.  Are there occassional icy days and windy days, yes....there is no denying that.  However, i really dont think that Lower Valley, Upper Valley, and John's bypass are the death traps that were described.  Is there eastern hard pack, sure....
My two cents:
Get there early, hit the Gondi at 8:30 and if you ski well you should be on a second run by 9.
We typically hit Excelsior for the first run, the S turns are fun before the crowd comes, drop off lunch and beverages at the mid mountain lodge and then spin down and take a second run.  Then we take the gondi back and hit approach to Mountain Run/Parkway/Wilderness/Mac...a couple of runs here, if the mountain is still empty, we grab another gondi.

After a warm up, back to the top, and Essex down, we then do the hard left and take the cross over to Vicoria, or through the woods to lower Sky....lately, we have takend the lookout chair up and hit Wilmington early, its fun when its groomed and there no one is snowplowing in the shoot down to Look out Below.  The trail section after LOB is delightful but it will take you to Boreen and you will have to head back to the Gondi or Face lift.  Ski this early.

Then lap the Summit Quad or Hoyts.   The top of Skyward can be daunting to some, work your way down the sides.
I cannot comment on follies as I rarely go there.  It gets filled with people trying to avoid Parons Run.

As for comparing the steep trails at Whiteface with Lies or Rumours, I think that the difference is length.  The trails at Whiteface, even Look Out Below and Empire keep going.   The 10th mtn division glades are steap.  

I hope that you have a wonderful time.

I know people that take that route.  If it works for you great.   Sounds like you get to the hill a little later than I do.  I use the gondi early and late.  If he loads the gondi at 8:30 and zips two shots down he will be loading the summit by 9:30 leaving the lines for the late comers.  As the summit chair  starts to build around 11:00 he will be off to lookout.  Hoyts and then W.  Lunch Time.   After two the only line will be at the bar.

There's NEVER a line at the bar when I get there

Someone has to help them take the stools down

Agree!  and your reply was much more diplomatic than mine would have been.  I just find it hard that someone who says they practically "live" at whiteface would have all of those comments to say about the mtn.  I find it hard to believe if you live there you havnt been in the glades or on many of the best trails either.  

Pants wrote

Agree!  and your reply was much more diplomatic than mine would have been.  I just find it hard that someone who says they practically "live" at whiteface would have all of those comments to say about the mtn.  I find it hard to believe if you live there you havnt been in the glades or on many of the best trails either.

my post was in response to grillman..i did it wrong.  he and TJ have the right idea and offer good advice.  Mr. Lives at Whiteface, not so much.

KC wrote

From what I've heard nothing on Whiteface (slides excluded) is as steep as the Rumor, not quite anyway.  That's entirely heresay on my part--I've never been down the Rumor nor all the black diamonds on Whiteface.  But as I practically live on Whiteface Mountain, here are some cliff notes, and here's the trail map so you have a clue what I'm talking about:

http://www.whiteface.com/files/public/WhitefaceTrailMap.pdf

First off, here's some general stuff: Whiteface likes to pretend it's an intermediates' mountain, as Gore actaully is.  It isn't.  Many of Whiteface's blue sqaures equal Gore's blacks.  And when Whiteface's blue squares are icy, as they often are, they are easily worse than any black I've been down on Gore.
Also, on days with wind holds, check out the trail map for chairs that can get you up to where you want to go.  One of the lifts above mid-station will get you to the top of Little Whiteface and the Freeway chair is good for getting to the black diamonds on the really bad days.  (And you can get to it by the Bear chair.)

The trails:

Face Lift area:
Upper Valley is almost always a nightmare.  As it steepens on the right, there is almost always an ice sheet stretching most of the way down the trail.  It's generally not obvious until you're making turns on that side of the trail, but it's not fun.  If you want to take a run down, the far left is the best, the middle alright.
Lower Valley can be a mad house too.  Unlike Gore, all of Whiteface's trails lead into the same place: Upper and Lower Valley.  It's just generally not a good place to be.  
River Run is a nice chute to get off Lower Valley and sometimes has moguls and powder.  However, on bad days, there are some strange bare spots and it's kind of like a rumble strip lower down with some real ice sometimes.
Burton's is a good escape too.
Wolf is a bordercross/skiercross and you can check out the air bag from over here.
There's a mini park after the main headwall of Lower Valley on the left under the Face Lift.

Little Whiteface:
Excelsior is the most popular trail down and almost always your best bet down on an icy day.  It can be crowded, but it's usually managable.  (Oh and the long flat off the gondola to get to Excelsior is sometimes just one big ice sheet--watch it.)
Lower Northway often has some excellent displays of ice sheets on the right.  Watch out for people coming down off Upper Northway and Essex.  
All of Little Whiteface's black diamonds have a tendency to be icy.  If you check the posted conditions sheets, they should tell you were snowmaking is.  Sometimes they will just pound guns on Mountain Run and it will be fantastic.  
Essex is a good indicator of the conditions on the black diamonds and it can have some nice moguls sometimes.  It's a good test of what things are like--some days it's all ice and you want to cut out onto Excelsior on the left.
Wilderness and Mackenzie often have moguls.
Empire is very narrow.
Thurway and Draper's are usually taken over by racers.

The summit:
Upper Skyward is incredible on a good day (headwall is steepest part), but can be one heck of an ice sheet.  Lower Skyward generally has better conditions and moguls.
Paron's will get windswept worse than Skyward sometimes.
The Follies can be extremely windy, but offer amazing views of Lake Placid (the actual lake) on good days.  (You can sometimes see Lake Champlain in the other direction from the summit or even the gondola.)
John's Bypass is, in my opinion, the most terrifying trail on the entire mountain.  People book it down that thing but it gets windswept in a funny way that leave ice sheets on all the downhills (it's mostly flat).  It also curves and slopes in funny ways and has some nice cliffs on the side that you don't realize are there.
Victoria can be pretty nice sometimes (and would certainly be a black at Gore) but is usually icy.  It generally has moguls at least on the left.  You can get to Victoria from the gondola--just watch it if you take John's Bypass.

Lookout:
Wilmington is more than two miles long.  If you're a skilled skier, then I wouldn't worry about this, but intermediates sometimes get on it and realize it's much more than they can handle.  It can get very moguled and icy, but it is generally a fantastic trail.
Lookout Below: check this one out from the Face Lift.  It's amazing how steep it looks--and it actually is very steep.  It generally has giant whales in addition to moguls and you want to think twice before going down if it's even skied off.
Hoyt's High just got snowmaking, but doesn't have the greatest grooming, apparently, so it sounds like it's going to stay skied off moguls and whales.  

Glades:
The blue glades are the only ones you can generally expect to be open--and I don't believe those are even open now.  The Sugar Valley Glades are the greatest part of Whiteface in my opinion, but at least the lower part (the only part usually open) probably don't deserve the double black.  I've never been in the Cloudsplitter Glades, but I believe those are pretty steep.  10th Mountain Division I've only taken a peak in--it's an easy in and out if you want to check them out off Lower Northway.  Of the black diamond glades, the High Country ones are the most likely to be open and are usually pretty good--and easy to get to from Excelsior by On Ramp.

Ok, looking bad on that I know I said basically EVERY trail has the tendency to be icy...and that can be the case.  But that's pretty much worse case...as one would hope with people like me practically living on it.

That post is so long and dumb it took me all day just to ignore it.

There is lots of good stuff in here. Whiteface is a big mountain so of course people are going to have their own ideas of how to attack it.

Funny....very funny.

You're lucky Noah's getting soft in his old age---it was darn funny

I'm with Pants concerning KC's summary

I had to read it a few times and the cliff note version of KC's cliff notes on Whiteface is this - everything is steep and icy.  Glad KC does not work in marketing at ORDA.

KC is right that many of our blue trails would be considered blacks elsewhere.  Yes Rumor is steep but it is short - Skyward is just about as steep but 5+ times longer.

Here is my short version - with the exception of Kids Kampus that you need to work to get to everything funnels back down the the same base area so you can't get lost.  If its busy stay high.  The Gondi is the only lift with a consistent lift line more than a minute or two.  The snow is always better in the morning - get out early and on this huge vertical you will ski yourself silly and legs burnt out before it gets firmer later in the day.

Enjoy.

@Noah: Totally didn't ask you to read it.

Ok, look, at Whiteface I am an INTERMEDIATE.  I like expert trails and glades, but I am not an expert.  I was a skier as a kid and have since learned to snowboard--jack of all trades, master of none.

If you don't want to read what is entirely my own opinion, then you don't have to.  It is the opinion of a sleep-deprived college freshman who did not think she would receive such a backlash for something she wrote on a forum at 1 a.m.

you ll never survive here being thin skinned.turn your feelings off when you log in

KC wrote

@Noah: Totally didn't ask you to read it.

Ok, look, at Whiteface I am an INTERMEDIATE.  I like expert trails and glades, but I am not an expert.  I was a skier as a kid and have since learned to snowboard--jack of all trades, master of none.

If you don't want to read what is entirely my own opinion, then you don't have to.  It is the opinion of a sleep-deprived college freshman who did not think she would receive such a backlash for something she wrote on a forum at 1 a.m.

I have a soft spot in my heart for sleep deprived college freshman. I don't agree with a lot of what you wrote, but thanks for the effort. SUNY Plattsburgh?