Whiteface Conditions (2017 - 2018)

D.B. Cooper wrote

He has a passion for skiing and obviously has a huge depth of knowledge.

I'd have to disagree with this ... what he does have is a lot of information ... knowledge is something entirely different, and it's something that he DOESN'T have.

Perhaps if he did have knowledge of certain things, he might have a better understanding of the decisions that sometimes have to be made, whether he likes them or not.

Reality is a bitch!

Fair enough.  Data --> information --> knowledge --> wisdom.  That's the hierarchy.

I had always heard:

 Data --> Information --> Knowledge --> Action

Face makes a good business point but that is a slippery slope that leads to all resorts becoming vanilla Okemos or Stratton's.  WF really is not blessed with the right low angle pitch to compete in that market.  What it does have in spades is steeps and trying to become something you have no hope of attaining is a bad business strategy.  Focus on what makes a business great vs something it can't be is I think what Sno is trying to say without much success.  Like it or not the ski biz has become a race to attain the most season pass holders and the rest pay full price.  Those full pricers are nice margin as Face pointed out but there just is not enough of them and they move to a different resort each year.  Long term this is a race Orda can't win so it needs to solidly lock up its core market and that is advanced and expert skiers that buy season passes.  How many former season pass holders defected to a Maxx pass this year - I guess a lot as Orda choose to not renew with the new pass products.  They have to go all in on season pass sales this year or lose more market share to Epic and Alterra.  If they are not successful and lose significant pass market share again this is a very bearish signal for Orda.

Sno is a good kid.  Ive skied with him quite a bit now and he is pleasant to ski with and his skill has improved considerably the last 3-4 years.  He does get stuck on issues and can drive you crazy too.  I blocked him for a month or so on social media over something he was ranting on a couple months back.  He is sort of a savant on lift issues and probably will contribute to the ski industry in a meaningful fashion when he graduates as I'm sure building lifts is his dream job.  Hopefully he will learn that pissing off ski resort GM's isn't compatible with his dream job.

Z wrote

Face makes a good business point but that is a slippery slope that leads to all resorts becoming vanilla Okemos or Stratton's.  WF really is not blessed with the right low angle pitch to compete in that market.  What it does have in spades is steeps and trying to become something you have no hope of attaining is a bad business strategy.  Focus on what makes a business great vs something it can't be is I think what Sno is trying to say without much success.  Like it or not the ski biz has become a race to attain the most season pass holders and the rest pay full price.  Those full pricers are nice margin as Face pointed out but there just is not enough of them and they move to a different resort each year.  Long term this is a race Orda can't win so it needs to solidly lock up its core market and that is advanced and expert skiers that buy season passes.  How many former season pass holders defected to a Maxx pass this year - I guess a lot as Orda choose to not renew with the new pass products.  They have to go all in on season pass sales this year or lose more market share to Epic and Alterra.  If they are not successful and lose significant pass market share again this is a very bearish signal for Orda.

Definitely a conversation worth having. Whether it makes more sense for Whiteface to move towards a more "family-friendly" / "casual skier" market versus keeping to a more "hard-core expert" skier market is debatable. From what I've heard, based on some of the market research they've done, it would appear that they need to move towards that casual market if they're going to have long term success. Whether they'll be able to make it happen is another question.

I don't know ANYTHING about the financials related to these multi-mountain passes, in terms of revenue distribution to the mountains, but I would assume that if someone bought a Whiteface season pass last year, and this year decided to buy a M.A.X. pass, Whiteface would be seeing less revenue from that pass purchase.

In reality, as much as I like Whiteface, if I didn't have a home in Lake Placid, and had to stay in hotels every weekend, I'm sure I'd buy a M.A.X. pass rather than a Whiteface pass, if for no other reason than the variety. I can't help but wonder if people buying these multi-mountain passes are skiing more days each year, but fewer days at any one mountain. It would seem likely that this would ultimately impact the bottom line of mountains that previously were able to sell a lot of season passes.

So, to your point, is Whiteface selling as many season passes as it has in the past, and if not, what's the reason? Is it because these multi-mountain passes are making people less devoted to any one mountain, or is it something else? More importantly, how does a mountain respond?

Just to make one thing clear, Snoloco was not the one who called for Kellett's termination, it was me.

My calling for Mr. Kellett's termination was definitely out of line. Under tension, I have a tendency to say things without actually thinking about what I'm really saying.  I don't believe that getting rid of him will solve any of our problems.

Ethan, you're showing that you're a stand up guy here. It isn't easy to admit when you're wrong. I thought that post was a little out of character but you forgot one word I think

I think it's nearly every ski mountains goal to attract the casual intermediate weekend warrior type skier. It's sort of important if they want to stay viable.

The big picture isn't about me or you and there's a lot of other things to consider. Some small sacrifices might be made here and there to keep your home mountain open and successful. I like what Harv said about the lodge, you might not be into it but there are a shit ton of day ticket purchasers that are and are a lot less concerned about the skiing product than you are.

Sometimes Sno you need to take a deep breath and chill, your life will be a lot more enjoyable once you except the things that you don't have control over.

Brownski wrote

 I thought that post was a little out of character but you forgot one word I think

What did I forget?

Ethan Snow wrote

Brownski wrote

 I thought that post was a little out of character but you forgot one word I think

What did I forget?

Come on bro. You're a smart kid. You can figure it out.

Z wrote

. . .
Like it or not the ski biz has become a race to attain the most season pass holders and the rest pay full price.  Those full pricers are nice margin as Face pointed out but there just is not enough of them and they move to a different resort each year.  Long term this is a race Orda can't win so it needs to solidly lock up its core market and that is advanced and expert skiers that buy season passes.  How many former season pass holders defected to a Maxx pass this year - I guess a lot as Orda choose to not renew with the new pass products.  They have to go all in on season pass sales this year or lose more market share to Epic and Alterra.  If they are not successful and lose significant pass market share again this is a very bearish signal for Orda.

Do you know that ORDA was asked to be part of the Ikon Pass?  Other than Eldora, which is part of Powdr, the other "partner" resorts are in a different category from Whiteface, Gore, and Belleayre.  The Ikon resorts in the northeast are ski resorts, not ski areas: Killington, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Loon.

I know people in the Boston area got the MAX Pass because ORDA was included.

Ethan Snow wrote

Under tension, I have a tendency to say things without actually thinking about what I'm really saying.

Qualified to be president, I'd say.....

Ethan Snow wrote

Brownski wrote

 I thought that post was a little out of character but you forgot one word I think

What did I forget?

I think he wants you to say sorry

Ethan Snow wrote

Just to make one thing clear, Snoloco was not the one who called for Kellett's termination, it was me.

Just to make another thing clear, I didn't attribute the idea to sno...

Harvey wrote

But to call for someone to be fired without really knowing the facts isn't right.

no I don't know that for sure

what I do know from talking to people is that there is a lot of former season orda pass holders that said hey we will just buy a Maxx pass instead of a season pass.  Sure Orda is picking up days from maxx pass holders but I'd bet that that the net loss of seaons pass revenue is bigger than the revenue from Max day skiers using it at Orda.  I'm pretty sure that they thought they would sell the add ons and ended up losing season pass sales as a whole.

They need to do a full court press to make sure they get those pass holders back but I don't think it will work out that way once people have had a taste of what else is out there.  Orda needs to really make pass holders feel the love and they only have a month to do so before next years pass goes on sale.  The one thing Sno is right about is not blowing Hoyts is going to help pass holders feel the love.

WFlongtimer wrote

 

I've just been lurking, but what you wrote set me off and I had to have my say.

Woody??? Is that you??

Harvey wrote

Ethan Snow wrote

Just to make one thing clear, Snoloco was not the one who called for Kellett's termination, it was me.

Just to make another thing clear, I didn't attribute the idea to sno...

I know you didn't. It just seemed like Sno picked up a lot of flack after what I said.

Junior wrote

I think he wants you to say sorry

Yeah, of course!

LOL I know you know I didn't!  Did anybody think it?  Fess up!

marznc wrote

Do you know that ORDA was asked to be part of the Ikon Pass?

Can you share what you know about this?

Adding intermediate terrian is exactly what WF needs. Their will be major improvements to snow making infrastructe ove the next two years.  

Huge bump in visitation from Canada and metro NYC area over the last couple season.

No one I ripped with yesterday even rode the lookout chair. Pow was so deep on uppercloud!