Whiteface Pass Deadlines (2011)

Michaeltokyo wrote

Face's gondola has far less capacity than Gore's.

The actual difference is 2000sliders/hr at WF vs 2400sliders/hr at Gore when both are at full speed. Not exactly "far less capacity." Gore runs its gondola at around 850fpm not the 1100fpm max speed. I do not know if WF runs at full speed (1200 fpm). If it does the capacities might be the same.

Also, there is less demand for the WF gondola. The WF gondola  does not serve any green skiers and only has one blue trail from the top station. WF below the Bistro is not exactly a black diamond paradise. There does not seem to be a real large group of sliders to yoyo the WF gondola when all WF lifts are operating. Skiers do not need the gondola to get to the 2 upper WF lifts (can use the Facelift HSQ). It also cost a lot more than Gore's gondola because it is longer, has more vertical and  needed a fresh cut up Little WF that cannot be used as a ski trail.

If you are curious how ORDA favors WF with its big ticket spending the WF gondola is exhibit A.

In response to Snowballs:


WF does have more snow making capacity then Gore. I don’t even know where Gore’s pumphouse(s) are. Does Gore have the infrastructure in place to make more snow, electrical, air compressors, water pumps? WF gets water from the Ausable River; does Gore have enough water access to make more snow? The reasons why WF makes more snow may have to do with a combination of investment, natural advantage and individual management decisions. Why will Hoyt’s High have no snowmaking for the 3rd year while Gore has snowmaking on Sagamore? Money was budgeted for snow pipe ahead of time by Gore, but not for WF. How come? I don’t know and I bet you don’t either, but I’d bet there where considerations in play that we’re not privy to.

As far as lifts go Lookout has a new fixed grip chair which is nice. Tell me why the Burnt Ridge chair is a state of the art high speed detachable? Does the expenditure justify the remote and limited terrain it services? Then there’s the Hudson chair a new triple to service terrain that is rarely open and townhouses that have not been built. Now I look at all the trouble we had with our old Little WF lift this season, a very useful chair and wonder why all that money went  to the BR and Hudson chairs? Yea see though…there could be very good reasons that we don’t know about.

Terrain parks, skier cross, etc. are individual management decisions. I use to like racing NASTAR at WF, but they don’t have it anymore, but Gore does. Poor me I guess ORDA was out to get me.

Paid parking is a nice revenue stream for Gore.  It would be fine with me if WF parking accessibility was conducive for more, but it is not.

I think ORDA is doing an outstanding job in upgrading and keeping both mountains competitive especially given the state of the economy.

One more thing, why does the NYS constitution give Gore  a 40 mile trail limit, but WF only gets 25 miles?  It’s not fair...WAAAAAA…I’m going to bitch and complain about it forever…WAAAAA…no fair.

Drifter I agree with you totally.  I had no idea that Snowballs and other Gore folks had such a deep inferiority complex.

From my perspective Gore has been favored in capex spending over the last few years.  Gore got the Brunt Ridge high speed quad which is placed where there is very little traffic.  Perhaps if they put a surface lift at the bottom of it to pull folks thru the flats it would make more sense and get more usage.  Sagmore got snowmaking but Hoyt's will not for the foreseeable future.

Gore also got the Hudson chair which is little used when LWF is desperately in need of a new chair but Orda can only afford an overhaul becasue all the capex was spent on Gore.  To Gore's credit they have done a great job with the glades.  Without the glades Gore is not worth spending what Orda has on it.

We both got gondola's at the same time and WF's was a game changer.  2500 vert in 7-8 mins totally changed the way the area was skied and really helped on cold days.  Gore's gondola makes much less sense to lap because you have to ski thru that stupid flat spot on every time down.

The flat spots bring up the big difference between Gore and WF - WF has long consistent pitch which gives WF the steepest and longest runs in the east - Gore has short pitches and huge flat spots.  Ultimately that is why WF is the more marketable asset of Orda.

Snowballs wrote

Michaeltokyo wrote

 Face's gondola has far less capacity than Gore's.

......and Gore has an Outhouse!

Gore has TWO outhouses. SUCK IT WHITEFACE!

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

In response to Snowballs:


WF does have more snow making capacity then Gore. I don’t even know where Gore’s pumphouse(s) are. Does Gore have the infrastructure in place to make more snow, electrical, air compressors, water pumps? WF gets water from the Ausable River; does Gore have enough water access to make more snow? The reasons why WF makes more snow may have to do with a combination of investment, natural advantage and individual management decisions. Why will Hoyt’s High have no snowmaking for the 3rd year while Gore has snowmaking on Sagamore? Money was budgeted for snow pipe ahead of time by Gore, but not for WF. How come? I don’t know and I bet you don’t either, but I’d bet there where considerations in play that we’re not privy to.

As far as lifts go Lookout has a new fixed grip chair which is nice. Tell me why the Burnt Ridge chair is a state of the art high speed detachable? Does the expenditure justify the remote and limited terrain it services? Then there’s the Hudson chair a new triple to service terrain that is rarely open and townhouses that have not been built. Now I look at all the trouble we had with our old Little WF lift this season, a very useful chair and wonder why all that money went  to the BR and Hudson chairs? Yea see though…there could be very good reasons that we don’t know about.

Terrain parks, skier cross, etc. are individual management decisions. I use to like racing NASTAR at WF, but they don’t have it anymore, but Gore does. Poor me I guess ORDA was out to get me.

Paid parking is a nice revenue stream for Gore.  It would be fine with me if WF parking accessibility was conducive for more, but it is not.

I think ORDA is doing an outstanding job in upgrading and keeping both mountains competitive especially given the state of the economy.

One more thing, why does the NYS constitution give Gore  a 40 mile trail limit, but WF only gets 25 miles?  It’s not fair...WAAAAAA…I’m going to bitch and complain about it forever…WAAAAA…no fair.

And Whiteface only added one new trail pod in the past decade.   Gore added three (Topridge, Burnt Ridge, Ski Bowl) and extended the east face to the summit of Bear!!!  Totally unfair.

Whiteface only got 2 additional glades in the past 10 years (Silver Glades, and Sugar Valley-- which they haven't even finished).  Gore added at least 11 glades, more if you count High Pines, Double Barrel, Twister's Little Sister, etc. as "glades".

They might as well start calling it GORDA because they clearly have a bias.  It's always MORE GORE, LESS Whiteface.

Twister's Little Sister is NOT a glade.

Obviously, it is not.  Nor is High Pines or Double Barrel for that matter, yet Gore lists them as glades on their website.

So ... anybody buy a Whiteface non-holiday pass yesterday?  

Seriously, and as I said in my earlier post, I don't understand the feeling that either Gore or Whiteface has been treated unfairly. If Gore and Whiteface and Belleayre were all run by the DEC and capital improvements were exactly as they are now would you feel differently?

At the company I work for, we had an employee who learned what another was being paid, felt unfairly treated and made an issue out of it. My position was that if you feel like you are being paid fairly for what you do, what does it matter what someone else makes?  And if it does matter to you, the option is to move on.

My Gore pass is $720 next year.  I'm going to buy it because I think I'm going to get $720 worth of fun out of it.  If I didn't feel that way, I'd go elsewhere. Both mountains have made great strides at improving their products over the last 20 years. All of those improvements have benefited me.

ORDA has been a great lobbyist for Gore and Whiteface. Just compare the investment in Gore and Whiteface vs Belleayre.  Maybe one mountain is getting more of this or that, but in the grand scheme of things, my only option is to vote with my wallet. I'm buying another ORDA pass this year, because to me it's worth it.  I'll ski more at Gore than WF because that's where my roots are - but they are both great mountains.

If you are an ORDA passholder: Why do you buy an ORDA pass?

You guys have expressed the very typical arrogant, rude Placid/Whiteface attitude towards Gore and it's customers. Customers whose money and rights are the same as yours. Customers, whose money is skimmed off of Gore, leaving Gore underfunded, to support Placid and your Mtn, Whiteface. Anytime we simply mention obvious ORDA inequalities, you arrogantly call us cry babies, insecure, and whiners.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

WF does have more snow making capacity then Gore. I don’t even know where Gore’s pumphouse(s) are. Does Gore have the infrastructure in place to make more snow, electrical, air compressors, water pumps? WF gets water from the Ausable River; does Gore have enough water access to make more snow? The reasons why WF makes more snow may have to do with a combination of investment, natural advantage and individual management decisions.

Gore gets it's water from the Hudson so water is not the issue. You said " a combination of investment,......and individual management decisions "

Hello! Ring Ring! Those are Orda's decisions and ORDA's lack of investment in Gore's snowmaking, like I said and you lamely try to dismiss. In fact, you infered I was a cry baby. We'll soon see who da cry baby.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

 Why will Hoyt’s High have no snowmaking for the 3rd year while Gore has snowmaking on Sagamore? Money was budgeted for snow pipe ahead of time by Gore, but not for WF.

 
Very moot point. Wimington trail has snowmaking. Neither mtn has snowmaking on all their expansions yet.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

 As far as lifts go Lookout has a new fixed grip chair which is nice. Tell me why the Burnt Ridge chair is a state of the art high speed detachable? Does the expenditure justify the remote and limited terrain it services? Then there’s the Hudson chair a new triple to service terrain that is rarely open and townhouses that have not been built.

Oh really! You don't like that? You think you made a valid point? Gee, look at you changing your spots, your position, just so you can defend Face's special treatment at Gore customer's expense. Perhaps you forgot you previous statements made the last time you stomped your feet and left the forum you moderated because Gore skiers didn't like some things at Gore. Here's what you wrote. Here's the link to your WAAAAAAAA cry baby episode.....

" Gore is making great strides in adding to and improving their infrastructure. IMO, they are well on their way to becoming one of the top ski area destinations in the Northeast. This will not only benefit Gore skiers/riders, but will give North Creek and surrounding communities a needed economic boost. The money for these improvements has to come from somewhere. "

http://forums.skiadk.com/about2602-0-asc-0.html

Those statements of yours are in direct conflict to your position now. Don't infer I or Gore customers are cry babies you hypocritic. You thought Gore's expansion wonderful enough to say "... well on their way to becoming one of the top ski area destinations in the Northeast." and you abandonded your moderator's post cuz you didn't like us complaining about paid parking. Now you're speaking out the other side of your mouth and saying things like.....

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

 Now I look at all the trouble we had with our old Little WF lift this season, a very useful chair and  wonder why all that money went  to the BR and Hudson chairs?

So which is it, oh double talker?

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

 Terrain parks, skier cross, etc. are individual management decisions. I use to like racing NASTAR at WF, but they don’t have it anymore, but Gore does. Poor me I guess ORDA was out to get me.

Cut the juvenille " poor me " accusatory BS. Those are ORDA decisions and you damn well know it. Most times Pratt didn't even have enough money to buy a friggin rail or pay his park crew of 1 let alone make snow for park features. He didn't even have a full snow crew for the old mtn, let alone the expansions. Why? ORDUH decisions! And Placid/Face reaping Gore's profits off.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

Paid parking is a nice revenue stream for Gore.  It would be fine with me if WF parking accessibility was conducive for more, but it is not.

That's a flat out lie and yet another example of your lack of integrity and lack of concern for equality within ORDA.  River lot would lend itself perfectly to paid parking just as easy as Gore's main lot did. You just won't admit it cuz you lack character.

You don't wanna have to pay to park close, but you think it's great if Gore skiers do... to support your lame self and ORDA"S preferentail treatment of YOUR Mtn. How friggin selfish and arrogant. You don't care what you say, as long as no one else complains about ORDA, Whiteface and you get to keep your special treatment by ORDA.

Need another example of ORDUH's rude arrogant attitude towards Gore? You guys go on about Gore's funding for the expansion, that money came from a direct State Grant not ORDUH's budget. ORDUH then arrogantly tried to usurp that money. ORDUH wasn't even going to release or use the money for Gore. They dragged their feet. It took a visit from determined group from North Creek people and a State Senator to force ORDUH to do what they were legaly bound to do.

Then the ORDUH board tried to extort money from Front Street before/if they released the State grant. Lussi was the leader saying " We're gonna make Front street's property valuable, he should contribute to this project"

Lussi's businesses profit greatly and directly from Whiteface........Where's that hypocrite's financial contribution to Whiteface?

You asked me to make a list, I did. You chose to ignore most of it and BS/lie about the rest of it. Typical Placid/Face response to legitimate Gore issues.

You made your list…I responded with my opinions to it…you don’t like them so you insult me and question my character. When you wrote we’ll soon see who the cry baby is where you threatening me?
There’s something wrong with you…get some anger management counseling.

ausable skier wrote

Drifter I agree with you totally.  I had no idea that Snowballs and other Gore folks had such a deep inferiority complex.

I and others raised factual concerns, HPD asked for a list, and you say we have deep inferiority. Screw you dumb ass. Behold your deep stupidity......

ausable skier wrote

 From my perspective Gore has been favored in capex spending over the last few years.

Most of that Gore money came from a direct State grant, not ORDA's budget. Hey AS, remember Lookout Mtn?

ausable skier wrote

Sagmore got snowmaking but Hoyt's will not for the foreseeable future.

So did the Wilmington trail.

ausable skier wrote

Gore also got the Hudson chair which is little used when LWF is desperately in need of a new chair but Orda can only afford an overhaul becasue all the capex was spent on Gore.

Wrong again Einstien. That money came from a State grant, not ORDA's budget.

ausable skier wrote

 Without the glades Gore is not worth spending what Orda has on it.

That was deeply stupid AS! Screw you, you arrogant asshole. ORDA's money comes from the taxpayers and Gore/ Face customers. As such, Gore customers are entitled to their fair share regardless of what jerks like you think. You didn't realize this is America, eh Comrade? That's because you're stupid.

ausable skier wrote

  Gore's gondola makes much less sense to lap because you have to ski thru that stupid flat spot on every time down.

Wrong again genius!!! There's Foxlair and Fairview, both are not nearly as flat as your head.

ausable skier wrote

  Ultimately that is why WF is the more marketable asset of Orda.

Oh the error, the blind arrogance.....Gore traditionally has more skier visits than Face. Gore is more marketable inspite of the way you guys and ORDA try to screw it over.

You geniuses want your chair fixed and snowmaking on Hoyt's? Get paid parking set up at Face.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

You made your list…I responded with my opinions to it…you don’t like them so you insult me and question my character. When you wrote we’ll soon see who the cry baby is where you threating me?
There’s something wrong with you…get some anger management counseling.

 
You responded with crap.  You asked me for facts and you respond with opinions? Man that is lame. Haha. There's something wrong with you.

You insulted me first without cause or evidence. I had documented evidence of your duplicity and hypocrisy.

There's nothing wrong with me. If you don't like your position, then change your behavior.

The reference to you being a cry baby was from the way you boo hoo'd on skiadk and ran away cuz you didn't like us disapproving of paid parking.

You remember don't you? It's was one of your quotes I used to show your hypocrisy and lies.

You gravely need some character counseling.

Hey '70s Gore kid....you diggin this?

Snowballs wrote

The reference to you being a cry baby was from the way you boo hoo'd on skiadk and ran away cuz you didn't like us disapproving of paid parking.

You remember don't you? It's was one of your quotes I used to show your hypocrisy and lies.

You gravely need some character counseling.

I left SKIADK, but not because of the paid parking fighting from Gore members. I confided my reason to a few people, Harvey was one of them. It's personal and I don't want to post it on an open forum.

I really don't know what you mean by hypocrisy and lies. I like Gore fine and wish it success. I just don't think they get an unfair shake from ORDA the way you do.

I’m Resigning as Forum Moderator  
highpeaksdrifter




Joined: 22 Dec 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Upstate, NY
   Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:22 am    

Over the four years this forum has been in existence both Whiteface and Gore have undergone major improvements while most other ski areas in the Northeast have basically stayed status quo. We’ve discussed these changes and all thinks WF and Gore and for the most part it has been positive, fun and informative. I’d also like to thank Greg, the owner for putting this board up and appointing me to be the moderator. I’ve already told Greg of my decision via PM.

No business is perfect and constructive criticism can be valuable in helping a business improve and grow. Lately, on the Gore side of the forum, nasty, negative and IMO naive comments have been pervasive and IMO unfounded.

Let’s take Gold parking for example; from reading most of the comments about it you would think it is some kind of evil plot against Gore customers. IMO, Gold parking is another revenue stream for Gore to generate in order to pay their expenses. Would it be better for customers if ticket prices or food prices were raised instead? With gold parking those who can afford it and are willing to pay can, those who can’t or won’t can walk by. Gore gets more revenue with no additional expense to ticket buyers or pass holders.

Gore is making great strides in adding to and improving their infrastructure. IMO, they are well on their way to becoming one of the top ski area destinations in the Northeast. This will not only benefit Gore skiers/riders, but will give North Creek and surrounding communities a needed economic boost. The money for these improvements has to come from somewhere.

I can’t control what people what to think or post, nor would I want to. I can control my participation in this forum and that’s what I’m doing by resigning. I want to be part of building WF and Gore up not part of trying to tear them down.

Many people have sent me very encouraging PMs over the years and I’d like to thank those who have. I’ve had a good run and a lot of fun as moderator, but it’s time for me to stop.

x10003q wrote

Michaeltokyo wrote

Face's gondola has far less capacity than Gore's.

The actual difference is 2000sliders/hr at WF vs 2400sliders/hr at Gore when both are at full speed. Not exactly "far less capacity."

Maybe not "far less capacity" depending on your point of view, but 20% greater capacity is significant, if your stats are accurate.  Subjectively, waiting for a car at WF seems slower than when the cars are queued up already when you board at Gore.   The scuttlebutt I heard had to do with the grid constraints in Wilmington affecting the uphill capacity.  

Just thought I'd get cranky like a lot of the posts in this thread.  

Snowballs wrote

I’m Resigning as Forum Moderator  
highpeaksdrifter

So?

Do you remember sending me PMs on SKIADK implying that you knew me? I'd ask you about it and you'd say you where kidding. One time you told me you drove by my house. I asked you if you knew where I lived and you again said you were kidding around. I took you at your word and decided it was just your sense of humor, but at first I found it strange. So anyway, things can get taken the wrong way on the internet.

If you remember things were getting bad on SKIADK. Gore management was getting upset, one forum member lost his job and ORDA told Greg to take off the direct link to WF's web site. I had aspirations for what I wanted to do at WF in the future so I didn't want it to seem that I was condoning the negative things being said about Gore and ORDA by being the forum moderator. I tried to calm things down; it didn’t work so without getting more specific, I resigned.
 
Things often get taken out of context on the internet because they're just words on a screen. You can't see the person, facial expressions or hear the the tone of voice. So we don't always fully understand how to take the message we are getting. How about we just let it go. I won’t bother you and I hope you’ll do the same for me.

Michaeltokyo wrote

x10003q wrote

Michaeltokyo wrote

Face's gondola has far less capacity than Gore's.

The actual difference is 2000sliders/hr at WF vs 2400sliders/hr at Gore when both are at full speed. Not exactly "far less capacity."

Maybe not "far less capacity" depending on your point of view, but 20% greater capacity is significant, if your stats are accurate.  Subjectively, waiting for a car at WF seems slower than when the cars are queued up already when you board at Gore.   The scuttlebutt I heard had to do with the grid constraints in Wilmington affecting the uphill capacity.  

Just thought I'd get cranky like a lot of the posts in this thread.  

Gore's gondi never runs at 1100fpm therefore it never has a 2400 capacity.

Snowballs - I'm not going to dignify your responses to my earlier post since you called me nasty names and stupid at least 5 times each.  I think your attacks on HPD and myself were really uncalled for.  Neither HPD nor I had attacked you.

I happen to like skiing at Gore and when the glades are open it is really an underated gem of the east.  I did a road trip in late March to Killington and the skiing sucked on Saturday so on Sunday i skied Gore on the way home and had a great day.  That said Gore has some fundemental flaws in all the huge flat spots that no amount of money in the world is going to fix.  Whiteface is blessed with huge vert and sustained steep pitches that make it one of the top few resorts in the east.  Thats not my opinion - its fact as the Ski magazine rankings have proved out year in and year out.  Becuase of that WF will always be the premier property of ORDA and Gore has been invested in probably more than than it would have gotten from a private ownership if ORDA was a real for profit owner.

Both Gore and WF have had a good run of state investment regardless where in the state budget the money has come from.  Now with the budget running dry we are fighting like little kids over the cookie crumbs and thinking that the other got preferential treatment by our parents.

ausable skier wrote

 That said Gore has some fundemental flaws in all the huge flat spots that no amount of money in the world is going to fix.  Whiteface is blessed with huge vert and sustained steep pitches that make it one of the top few resorts in the east.  Thats not my opinion - its fact as the Ski magazine rankings have proved out year in and year out.  Becuase of that WF will always be the premier property of ORDA and Gore has been invested in probably more than than it would have gotten from a private ownership if ORDA was a real for profit owner.

Both Gore and WF have had a good run of state investment regardless where in the state budget the money has come from.  Now with the budget running dry we are fighting like little kids over the cookie crumbs and thinking that the other got preferential treatment by our parents.

While WF is blessed with sustained steeps and black vert there is very little low blue - blue skiing on the mountain.
The 'game changer' gondola has zero green access and 1 blue trail off it. Not a lot of choice for the vast majority of skiers. And as I mentioned before, I doubt most black skiers (including me) want to yoyo the gondola. All the Little WF good stuff ends at the Bistro.

You might feel that WF is the premier property, but that is only because of the LP bias by the ORDA board. There have been plans to connect to the Ski Bowl or go down to Pleasant Valley Rd since I started skiing at Gore in the mid 1980s. ORDA managed to keep the lid on Gore until  Gov Pataki and NYS earmarked the money specifically for Gore. Lake Placid does not want to compete with Gore.

Just mentioning the ridiculous Ski Mag popularity contest shoots a big hole in your discussion. Here are a few
"high" lights: #11 Seven Springs, Pa one rank ahead of #12 Killington,#13 Mt Sunapee, #15 Holiday Valley, NY one rank ahead of #16 Mt Snow, #17 Snowshoe W VA, #18 Bromley ahead of #19 Jay Peak and #20 Wachusett. Really? If you planning to drive 5-6 hours to spend $$ for skiing and SS/ Holiday Valley vs Gore is your choice are SS/HV even a choice? Wachusett? Really? Wachusett is a 1000 ft vert, 110 acre day area. Gore is not even mentioned in the results. Would you rather ski Gore or Wachusett?

Private ownership of Gore would have built out Gore in the 1980s - just when HS lifts were starting to appear. Right now it would be getting its HS lifts upgraded and replaced (Stowe/Mt Snow/Hunter). Gore's HS triple is probably beyond its replacement time. It has now been in use as long as the long gone Red Gondola.

These upgrades and replacements like the needed ones at WF should have been taken care of already by ORDA. But the ORDA board felt it was better to spend $17 million on the LP  conference center. Amazingly the conference center  happens to be very close to 2 ORDA board members hotel properties - The Crowne Plaza (Lussi) and the Mirror Lake Inn (Weibrecht). Those 2 properties are also featured (along with a few others) on the Conference Center web site.

Please understand I love skiing at WF. But the favoritism shown by the ORDA board for WF which is about 10 miles from the property they own or the voters they rep is hard to deny.

Back to one of the original questions: Why does the WF only pass include non holiday weekends and the Gore only pass does not?