Love and Fear

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Harvey Harvey
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Love and Fear

I really respect nepa because in my view, he can't be easily characterized on linear left-right scale.  Because of this I tend to think about what he says.

I was thinking about his comments in the Domestic Terrorism thread. I believe he was saying that amplification can be just as important as signal.  By focusing on certain things and ignoring others, we modify reality in ways that aren't always positive.  

Regarding the media, "they" aren't fully to blame. We live in a capitalist society, and they are selling what we are buying.  If CNN and MSNBC and FOX had no ratings and PBS was killing it, the news would be quieter and more thoughtful.

I accept my own part in this. Peetex called me out for posting the video of Trump "acting like a thug." He's right, I took something base and gave it more airtime.

I've been trying to think about how I could be more understanding and calm about the incident this weekend in Virginia. Not to accept it, but to understand it, and react without anger.

Years ago I was given a book by a woman called "Conversations with God."  The title didn't inspire me to open the book, at all.  But I was curious about it because the person who gave it to me was very thoughtful and not at all religious.

The book was based on a simple idea.  All human activity and emotion stems from one of two natural emotions: Love and Fear.  These two motivators are with us from birth. The idea is that we are not born with hate in our hearts, it is a learned behavior, the result of fear.

If this theory is correct, then the solution to hate isn't anger or more hate, it's understanding.  Once we understand the source of fear we could work to reduce it.

It seems logical to me that those who are condemned as haters are afraid of losing something they see a crucial to their existence, their being. Why does a statue of General Lee matter so much?  I don't fully understand it, but we can't dismiss it, if we want things to change.
"If it's my mountain, I'm installing a fixed grip and telling the lifties to stuff the beginners into chairs as aggressively as they have to to keep it going full speed." —Brownski
MC2 5678F589 MC2 5678F589
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Re: Love and Fear

Harvey wrote
Why does a statue of General Lee matter so much?  I don't fully understand it, but we can't dismiss it, if we want things to change.
Between your two choices?

Fear. Specifically fear of change, fear of the "other" and fear that they might lose their stuff. And by "stuff" I mean both possessions and privilege.
nepa nepa
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Re: Love and Fear

In reply to this post by Harvey
Thanks Harv.  I really appreciate the kind words.

In general, I don't think all of the protest is necessary.  It won't change the hate.  It only creates more opportunity for violence.

The protest did nothing for me.  It changed nothing.  Even if there was no violence as a result, I would still think it was a waste of time.  Just like a lot of our problems in society, hate is here to stay... regardless of the number of protests, hate will never go away.  Can someone provide a concrete benefit of this protest?  Even if there were no violence yesterday, what good would have it done?  Would the protest make any of those hate mongers love the ones they hate?

If the protest organizers were a bit less passionate, and a lot more intelligent, maybe they would have discussed the possible tragic outcomes of their decision, and decided to hold a counter rally in a different location.  But instead, they chose to be a bunch of attention whores looking for a facebook/instagram moment to boost their following and like counts on social media.

 
MC2 5678F589 MC2 5678F589
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Re: Love and Fear

The point of public demonstration is to put forward an idea. The reaction of the masses is how that idea is received.

Because Trump emboldened neo-nazis, they put together their demonstration to see how far they could go. It was a test. Some Republican politicians passed the test by firmly condemning neo-nazis and reiterating that this type of shit should not be a part of 21st century America. Other politicians (like Trump) failed the test and emboldened them further. They're happy with his response:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/neo-nazi-daily-stormer-trump-charlottesville_us_59905c7ee4b08a2472750701

This has been one of Trump's things since the start - acting as if immigrants, Muslims, and black people are responsible for all of the violence in this country and downplaying the very real problems of white supremacy, far right "militias", and fringe racist groups.

It's not the protest, it's the response to the protest that is important. And people around here seem to be flailing, too.

Judging by the actions of camp and PeeTex, it seems as though they think Kaepernick's protest and Black Lives Matter is more dangerous than a rally of fucking neo-nazis. PeeTex is on here actively defending them, and camp hasn't said a peep. Last year, he blamed Obama for a Trump supporter setting a Muslim woman on fire:

campgottagopee wrote
mattchuck2 wrote
Yeah, I think we should hold Clinton's feet to the fire. The time to do that is after she defeats this racist fucking idiot who is emboldening racists all over the country to do shit like this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/amp/new-york/nyc-crime/exclusive-traditionally-dressed-muslim-woman-set-fire-article-1.2789052
Funny, Obama has been our President for the past 8 years and you blame Trump? How do you know the guy who set this woman on fire wasn't a black dude?? You're quick to jump to conclusions without having all the information.
There is a big problem with White Supremacy in this country. The protest against White Supremacy is still important because a lot of people are still supporting white supremacy (the country just elected someone who winked and nodded at the KKK for the entire election cycle).

I know people don't like protests that force them to examine their own beliefs and if they are doing enough to stop hate. They would prefer if things were peaceful and quiet, so they wouldn't have to confront the fact that we have militias, racists, and Nazis running around the country and a racist President that they think supports them.

But that was always one of the dangers of Trump. Ml said as much last year:

ml242 wrote
Trump is... really picking up steam with the dregs and race-baiters of our
society. Whenever a Jewish reporter posts something critical of him, real
trolls come out of the woodwork to post nazi-era meme's about Jews. I have a
fairly thick skin but seeing these cartoons bandied around makes me really
worry about Amerikkka and what the fuck I thought it was. I think Trump
himself might be humorous if he wasn't auditioning for the highest office in
the land, and instead this was a reality show for a new program... but I am
completely baffled that people can take him seriously while he provides
cover for complete racist turds. In additional to everything else.

Now back to your Hillary Trump mudslinging I guess.
Everyone with a brain saw this shit coming, and a bunch of people voted for Trump anyway. Good times.
campgottagopee campgottagopee
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Re: Love and Fear

Great thread Harv.
campgottagopee campgottagopee
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Re: Love and Fear

In reply to this post by MC2 5678F589
Sorry to disappoint you MC but this all happened while I wasn't at work. I don't have the internet or a computer at home, never will. I have more important things to do with my free time then spend it at a keyboard. But I'm in my office now, ready to waist some time.

What happened over the weekend just blows my mind. I spent the weekend with my fiance and we certainly talked about the happenings in Virginia. She's 13 years younger than I am so as you can imagine we have varying opinions on alot of items, this one wasn't one of them. We both said that in this day and age that this kind of thinking and actions still happen, but they do. I loathe the KKK just as much as I loathe The New Black Panthers. I'm a firm believer in our right to freedom of speech and our right to protest. I'm also a firm believer that one should be ready to accept what comes your way as a result of those rights. You go around shouting white lives matter, Jews won't replace us, you better be ready for a fight. You start kneeling during our National Anthem, disrespecting our flag, and those who died for it, you better be willing to accept what heads your way. I repeatedly said I agreed with Kapernicks message that police brutality needs to stop, but thought his avenue of  protest was of the worst kind. In my mind what he did is no better or worse that what the KKK just did over the weekend. I also think that black lives matter AND white lives matter do nothing but racially divide us even further. I support All Lives Matter. I can't understand why people would hate anyone simply because of the color of their skin just as much as I can't understand why people will hate cops simply because of the uniform. I also can't understand why you are enjoying blaming tRump and his voters for the KKK violence over the weekend when you know damn well the KKK and violence existed long before tRump became president. You also like to spin everything into a political discussion, that baffles me. You also come across that anyone who disagrees with you, has a different point of view than you as stupid. You are the only one who is right and has good ideas to help make our country a better place. You love to point your finger and place blame, you're quick to do so as well. You enjoy taking quotes out of context, or even quoting part of what you may say to try and belittle someone or to try and prove, once again, that you are right and someone else is wrong. To me you, and people like you, are as big of part of the problem as the KKK but you just don't have a white hood on.
tjf1967 tjf1967
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Re: Love and Fear

I agree with it all...except the getting hitched again part.   Nothing good can come of getting the county court house involved.    
MC2 5678F589 MC2 5678F589
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Re: Love and Fear

In reply to this post by campgottagopee
campgottagopee wrote
You love to point your finger and place blame, you're quick to do so as well. You enjoy taking quotes out of context, or even quoting part of what you may say to try and belittle someone or to try and prove, once again, that you are right and someone else is wrong. To me you, and people like you, are as big of part of the problem as the KKK but you just don't have a white hood on.
Part of learning is confronting your past words and seeing if they still hold resonance, or if you regret saying them. You expressed no regret for your words dismissing a racist attack.

You STILL don't understand what Black Lives Matter is about. The "both sides" thing you're doing is assigning just as much blame to the oppressors as you do to the oppressed. Kaepernick kneeled in a silent protest. A white supremacist drove a car into a crowd of people, killing one and injuring 19. And you say this:

. I repeatedly said I agreed with Kapernicks message that police brutality needs to stop, but thought his avenue of  protest was of the worst kind. In my mind what he did is no better or worse that what the KKK just did over the weekend.
And then you accuse ME of being as bad as the KKK. What? When have I lynched someone? When have I beaten someone, dragged them behind a truck? When have I had my followers infiltrate government and police forces to institute white supremacist policies that controlled the south for decades and continue to this day? When have I done this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington_insurrection_of_1898

You have a warped view of history and a warped view of present day America if you think that me, a guy writing on the internet is "just as bad as the KKK".

And, if you want a reason why Trump is a catalyst for this shit, and not a deterrent, please read this from the left:

https://newrepublic.com/article/144306/donald-trumps-racist-troops

Or this, from the right:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/450433/alt-rights-chickens-come-home-roost

Trump is a racist that emboldens other racists to do racist shit. It just so happens that a lot of those racists are members of the Republican Party.

Sorry if pointing that out is a trigger for you, but it's the truth.
raisingarizona raisingarizona
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Re: Love and Fear

I'm not so sure that Trump is a racist or he just says things to keep his voter base happy. Narcissistic people are like that, they will say anything if it benefits themselves.
campgottagopee campgottagopee
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Re: Love and Fear

In reply to this post by MC2 5678F589
I am willing to accept anything that comes my way because of what I believe in. You can spin my words into whatever you would like, I've gotten used to it.

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