Whiteface - Lookout Mountain...estimated opening?

Not necessarily, because I can read a weather forecast, which allows me to tell if management or the weather is the problem.

Miss the day by a week with warm weather and r*in?  Weather was the problem.  Miss the day by a week with good snowmaking temps?  Management was the problem.

snoloco wrote

Proves my theory that the Lookout terrain is pretty much just a scam to up their skiable acreage.

Maybe somewhat, but I think that's kind of good IMO.

As much as I'd like too see Lookout open, the way I see it is it's good to have room to expand. On a really good winter, you get 100% open, but on the average winter you might only get 80%. A small mountain like Royal (which I don't like by the way) makes all their snow by Christmas on a halfway decent year, and that's it. That's as good as it gets. Boring. I guess Hunter can do this too, but at least Hunter is a fun mountain. Getting Whiteface open is more intimate love affair. It takes a lot of work to reach 100% open and the results are more rewarding. That is what sets places like Gore and WF apart from "other major resorts in the the East."  Whiteface always has something bigger to shoot for.

Also, IMO this Winter so far has been a a dumpster fire, and I know because I am a snowmaker. Late fall was better in some ways. Temps overall have been marginal, and humidity has been high, plus a few rain events. The last couple days have been the only days since it has officially been winter that snowmaking has been highly productive. The mountains have it a little better than my house at 1400' but still, I know that snowmaking conditions have been below average this season. So give these guys a break. Traditionally February produces the largest amounts of snow.

I'd love to ski at WF as much as you do, regardless of Lookout.  but I'm not driving 4 hours every weekend when I have Plattekill and Hunter each an hour away. I don't do Belleayre. So, consider yourself privelidged.

snoloco wrote

There is always going to be a couple warm and wet weeks in any eastern ski season, and if your ski area is so vulnerable to them that it causes huge sections of the mountain not to open at all, then your snowmaking needs a serious upgrade and it needs it now.

If WF doesn't overspend this year, maybe they can make some upgrades after two poor seasons.

I know I'm going to upgrade my plant again this summer.

Ethan Snow wrote

snoloco wrote

Proves my theory that the Lookout terrain is pretty much just a scam to up their skiable acreage.

Maybe somewhat, but I think that's kind of good IMO.

As much as I'd like too see Lookout open, the way I see it is it's good to have room to expand. On a really good winter, you get 100% open, but on the average winter you might only get 80%.

That's what The Slides and the rest of the glades are for.  This far north, they've had plenty of good snowmaking weather, and many other mountains are close to 100% open.  Last year, as well as 11-12 and 06-07 would be what I consider dumpster fire winters.

It's not cost effective at all to have millions of dollars of snowmaking and lift infrastructure sitting there for years without being used.  I do recall you saying that ski areas shouldn't keep terrain on the map if they aren't going to open it when I saw you on Friday.  If Whiteface isn't going to commit to opening Lookout in a mediocre to average winter, they should take the lift out and sell it, do the same with the snowmaking infrastructure, and take it off the map, rather than teasing their paying customers every year who want to see it open, then pulling the rug out from under them when it's too late to cancel their President's Weekend plans.

snoloco wrote

 Last year, as well as 11-12 and 06-07 would be what I consider dumpster fire winters.


Well 06/07 was only poor in the beginning half. It was absolutely outstanding starting the 4th week of January right to close in late April, it just dumped almost every 10 days like clock work till late March. The Valentines Day snow storm laid down nearly 4ft in a 24hour period. Which again brings back us back to my main point. Give it time. I can't recall a year Lookout has opened much earlier than the week before MLK weekend, so right now theres plenty of time for it to open and not be off the norm.

snoloco wrote

It's not cost effective at all to have millions of dollars of snowmaking and lift infrastructure sitting there for years without being used.  I do recall you saying that ski areas shouldn't keep terrain on the map if they aren't going to open it when I saw you on Friday.  If Whiteface isn't going to commit to opening Lookout in a mediocre to average winter, they should take the lift out and sell it, do the same with the snowmaking infrastructure, and take it off the map, rather than teasing their paying customers every year who want to see it open, then pulling the rug out from under them when it's too late to cancel their President's Weekend plans.

Definitely a good argument there. We'll see what happens in a couple weeks. Anyone here know what was the latest date Lookout opened in previous years?

I recall it opening the last weekend in January in 13-14 and 14-15, so there is still time, but I'm not optimistic given that the long range forecast was a flaming pile of dog shit.

Maybe some of you would understand my concern and frustration I've expressed in this thread better if I put this out here.

My experience with the Lookout terrain has been relatively limited, but the times I've had the opportunity to ski it were extremely memorable.

One day I was able to ski it was in early March 2013, the first year Hoyt's had snowmaking.  They have gotten like a foot of snow the week before, and that trail had these nice soft bumps the whole way down, as if it snowed the day prior.  My first time on that trail and it was already one of my favorites.  

The other day that I have fond memories of skiing the Lookout terrain was in spring 2015.  It was my last big trip of the year, and my dad and I decided to go to Whiteface over Killington because they had all 3 summits open and lots of terrain.  Although the usual spring trails were as fun as they always were, what really made the day stand out was the availability of even more terrain on Lookout.  I remember lapping Hoyt's over and over till my legs were burning, but enjoying every minute of it.  I also remember taking a run down Wilmington in full afternoon sunshine with it all to ourselves, taking in the views and savoring every moment of it.  It was definitely the best spring skiing day I've ever had, and what really set it apart were the runs I took on Lookout Mountain.

I know that to have either of those experiences again, Lookout has to be open, and I'm concerned that it won't open at all this year.  I know you'll tell me to "stop acting spoiled", "appreciate what I have", etc.  I do appreciate what I have.  I have always loved the Summit and LWF terrain, and will continue to enjoy my runs there for however long the season lasts, but the Lookout terrain adds a unique aspect to the already great terrain, and makes the difference for Whiteface to have what I think is the best terrain in the east.

Ethan Snow wrote

 Getting Whiteface open is more intimate love affair. It takes a lot of work to reach 100% open and the results are more rewarding. That is what sets places like Gore and WF apart from "other major resorts in the the East."  Whiteface always has something bigger to shoot for.

What sets Whiteface & Gore apart from other major resorts in the east is poor management, obvious undercapitilization, set-your-watch-by-it inefficiency, horrible ROI, and a depressing waste of 2 mountains that are otherwise absolutely fantastic natural gems, but are never allowed to fully reach what should be their true potential.  

I find myself in the ironic & conflicting position of agreeing with both Snoloco, and all the people ripping on Snoloco.

Fuck, man!  I can't go in the office now, eyes all red, face all blotchy.  Sno really brought a deluge of tears to mine eyes!!!

JT in da house......(in my best false) Cry me a river.....

Notice how your touching experiences were in MARCH/SPRING?  Wilmington has always been hit or miss for MLK.  Dude gotta CTFO, know what I'm sayin'?

BenedictGomez wrote

Ethan Snow wrote

 Getting Whiteface open is more intimate love affair. It takes a lot of work to reach 100% open and the results are more rewarding. That is what sets places like Gore and WF apart from "other major resorts in the the East."  Whiteface always has something bigger to shoot for.

What sets Whiteface & Gore apart from other major resorts in the east is poor management, obvious undercapitilization, set-your-watch-by-it inefficiency, horrible ROI, and a depressing waste of 2 mountains that are otherwise absolutely fantastic natural gems, but are never allowed to fully reach what should be their true potential.  

Yes, agreed, both statements are true!  I think Whiteface and Gore are special mountains, each with unique attributes that set them apart.  Unfortunately, as Government run entities they face obstacles and challenges beyond those that for-profit mountains typically face.  While we all might 'want what we want, when we want it', generally we have to recognize that W&G managers are generally doing the best they can with what they've been given.  Are they perfect?  Who is!?!  Are they out to screw over Sno?  Nah.

It's great to be passionate, and nostalgic, and somewhat vocal even about those things.  That said, perspective and patience seem to be in short supply for some, and this constant 'sky is falling' shit gets tiresome.

Ethan had a good point in the snowmaking thread, it really hasn't been that cold and efficient of a snowmaking season to date.  I also agree with a point someone also made in one of these threads, that the YTD total of 112 inches is a bit misleading as more than a few of those inches disappeared before anything opened.  Despite those things, it's not even MLK yet and Empire, Cloud, Lower Sky have been OPEN, and the Tribe is making a fairly typical progression around the mountain.  So, let's hope what has really been a great season so far, one that is young at that, continues and that the weather doesn't turn on us, and just chill a little already with the constant complaining and criticizing on things that should neither be complained about nor criticized at this point, okay?  'Nuff said?  Please!!

Snoblow, you need to crawl back in bed with your Wooby and suck your thumb, you ain't getting any sympathy here

Face4Me wrote

11. Ski area regulations are enforced by the reckless skier policy and New York State Code Rule 54, Article 18, “Safety in Skiing Code.” Any misuse, fraudulent use, misconduct or nuisance caused by the pass holder or failure to follow New York State law or ski area policy may result in confiscation of the pass without refund or other consideration. Whiteface management reserves the right to confiscate season passes depending upon the severity of rules infractions.

It doesn't mention poaching

snoloco wrote

Proves my theory that the Lookout terrain is pretty much just a scam to up their skiable acreage.

If the Vet's highway was on the trail map, that would be a scam.

JTG4eva! wrote

Notice how your touching experiences were in MARCH/SPRING?  Wilmington has always been hit or miss for MLK.  Dude gotta CTFO, know what I'm sayin'?

What happens now determines whether those opportunities will exist in March/Spring.

Just wait till President's Day.  Lift lines will be out of the ropes on the Summit and LWF lifts.  While the Lookout chair never has a line, there were always a good number of people skiing it that will now be crammed onto the other terrain, making for Vermont style trail crowding.  Once the lifts fill up, they'll all just start to pile up in lift lines, which will be just as bad or worse than what Killington will be like.

I have pretty much zero tolerance for ski areas having lifts closed on busy days when they simply chose not to open them, which will be the case here.  I'm sure I speak for many here.  My guess is management will get hundreds, if not thousands of complaints about Lookout being closed on President's Weekend.  I'll most certainly write out of a few.  If I had a vacation booked to LP on President's Weekend, I'd be considering cancelling and going elsewhere if it's MLK weekend and there are still entire sections of the mountain closed.  But we'll probably see them wait to say "Lookout is not opening at all this year" until just before President's Weekend so these people can't take a refund and go elsewhere.

Harvey wrote

And it turns out asking is one method to learn:

"Mountain has been killer! Lookout snowmaking is in the plans and should happen very soon. Hopefully be there within a week if the weather cooperates."

Source?

If the mountain does not have the capacity to blow more snow how can that me managements fault?  They are out there every chance they get blowing to capacity, what else can they do?   Could communication be a little better?  I guess but if you don't get an answer you want  people just ask the question again.  Its early still for lookout.  I believe it should be the goal of the mountain to increase snowmaking to the point that all three mountains can be open by Christmas as long as the weather agrees.  That can't happen with the current infrastructure.  So how can they get the funding to bring the infrastructure up to that goal, Albany!  Directing your angst at the people that do not control the checkbook is frustrating to all involved.  Figure out how they get there funding and who makes those decisions and start blasting them.  They are the only ones that can provide the capital.  

snoloco wrote

I have pretty much zero.........

.....idea of what you are talking about!  Until you get a good idea, some real experience, you need dial it back.  You certainly don't "speak for many here"!

I've skied WF on MLK weekend for like 20 years.  President's week has been a regular thing for a while, too.  In those 20 years the longest I've wIted for the Gondi has been like 20 minutes, maybe a couple of times, right before or after lunch.  That was before Lookout and after Lookout, either opened or closed.  Of all the times I've skied Lookout (a bunch) the lift has never had a corral, much less more than a dozen people wIting to load.  Ever.  Including holiday weekends it's been open.  I've seen the maze filled on the Summit Quad like twice in 30 years, shortly after opening, then it died down (while I went singles and didn't wait, anyway).  You, quite simply, are making shit up!  Stop it.  Chill!  

I'm happy for you you have a new home mountain, now you need to start acting like a local and ADK mountain man instead of some know it all, whiny little spoiled bitch kid, one who hasn't skied enough at WF to be saying the shit you've been saying.  We all want Lookout to open.  It probably will.  Weather goes belly up it may not.  Not the end of the world either way.  If you can't deal with that without driving us fucking nuts maybe you should find a new mountain.  Otherwise STFU and enjoy what has been a great season so far!

JTG4eva! wrote

 

I'm happy for you you have a new home mountain, now you need to start acting like a local and ADK mountain man  

This kid has ZERO chance of that.

You can't act like a ADK mountain man --- it can't be taught --- it's a lifestyle, a mindset, a religion ---- jerzy kids don't posses  the brain waves to comprehend that.

tjf1967 wrote

If the mountain does not have the capacity to blow more snow how can that be managements fault?

They do have the capacity because they're making snow today on lots of open terrain.  Move snowmaking to Lookout instead and it would've been opening this weekend.  They need to change their snowmaking plans more than anything.  Until all snowmaking terrain is open, terrain expansion comes first.  Don't blow snow on any open terrain unless not doing so would result in that terrain being closed again. Once everything is open, go back and build base depths in high traffic and areas that don't hold snow well.

If you have the email addresses of the people who can actually make the financial decisions to bring more snowmaking to Whiteface, please email me them.