$20M for Whiteface and Gore + $8M for Belle

I hear from some folks that different mountains in ORDA lose different amounts of money.  I don't know, but I am sure someone like Coach has better sources than me.

I will say, a couple hundred grand for a tow rope or carpet across Belle's ridge to move side-to-side would be better than a Gondi.

And I hope that the Gondi (if it happens) doesn't bring out the weekend Hunter-ites (of whom at least one family is a friend, so I don't want to generalize). . . .

The Adirondack Daily Enterprise is reporting the $28M is a go.

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/news/local-news/2017/04/projects-get-green-light-under-budget-extender/

Ethan Snow wrote

Anyone been here before? This is not new, and I think I see a trail crossing the road, and some sort of lift going from base to the top of Tomahawk.
http://www.belleayreresort.com/development.htm

Is this different from the most recent development plans? Hard to tell when that was written

Ethan,

This is the most current publicly available plan from the UMP:



If it were me I would eliminate Tomahawk and the Belleayre West Lift. Then install a high speed 6-pack (or Gondi if they must have it) using the Tomahawks current lift line but extending down further to the general Discovery base area. Build another bridge roughly at the base of the "Belleayre West" trails to allow skiers to funnel down to the base.

Instead of 3 lifts you only need one to service all of the terrain.

Bellayre only does things in the most expensive way possible
when you have a streak dating back to your inception of losing money every year you need to work hard to keep that going.

Well at least they are consistent eh?

I like eventful's idea. Even if the terrain is segmented badly the gondola would at least get used and their maintenance bill would be a lot less every year eliminating the other lifts.

evantful wrote

Ethan,

This is the most current publicly available plan from the UMP:



If it were me I would eliminate Tomahawk and the Belleayre West Lift. Then install a high speed 6-pack (or Gondi if they must have it) using the Tomahawks current lift line but extending down further to the general Discovery base area. Build another bridge roughly at the base of the "Belleayre West" trails to allow skiers to funnel down to the base.

Instead of 3 lifts you only need one to service all of the terrain.

Dumping the 3 upper mountain lifts for 1 long nightmare run out off a HS6 you suggested is a complete fail.

Anybody who can handle a blue or black trail does not want to ski the green section below the Overlook lodge every time they need to get to the top. Think about the WF gondola and the boring Lower Valley to Fox to get back to the gondola base. Those upper chairs at Belleayre serve  and will serve the best terrain. Also, it would be a bad move to introduce high speed skiers from all those upper mountain trails draining down to the lower green trails.

Benny I hear you, but the difference between the top of Little Whiteface to the Base is just over 2500 feet. The difference between the top of Belleayre to the Discovery base is about 1300ft. The run out is dramatically shorter at Belleayre. More so its about keeping operational costs down, especially mid week where you would be required to run the Belleayre West lift to gain access to those trails.

Right now for most of the proposed terrain to be accessible you would need to run the following: Super Chief, The Double Double for the lower Greens, The Discovery Lift, Belleayre West, Highmount Lift. And really the Lift 7 Triple as it makes getting to the interior trails a pain in the ass if its not running.

So 5-6 lifts have to be running... Thats an incredible amount of lifts for a mountain Belleayre's size

Actually that section over there below the Tomahawk lift base has a pretty good pitch to it, but the access road kills it.

Rendering of the new Saddle Lodge that Gore just put on Facebook.  They are keeping some structural and cosmetic elements of the original, but it looks like most of it will be new.



This is a very welcome upgrade.  I considered the old one to be an outdated rat hole.  It was so bad you couldn't even consider it to have "rustic character".  There never enough seating, very limited food options, and the bathrooms looked and smelled absolutely horrific, even when recently cleaned.

Since Gore is so spread out and has so many different aspects, it can be difficult to get from one side of the mountain to the other, so having a full service lodge at a central location on the mountain outside of a base area helps a lot.  As long as the High Peaks lift is running consistently, one skiing any of the upper lifts can save a lot of time by not going to the bottom for food.

They also confirmed the old gondola building is being restored with bathrooms being installed.  No mention of any food services.  I wish they'd just have built a new lodge to shorten that long flat spot, but it was probably a lot cheaper to restore the existing building.  This means there's no need to even leave Straightbrook if you need to use a bathroom.  Should be very convenient.

I'd appreciate any and all comments on our recent front page post, pro or con.

http://nyskiblog.com/open-letter-to-governor-cuomo/

Everybody wants a handout. Maybe the letter should suggest the state privatize these areas and let them compete with everybody else rather than suggest everyone get to suck on the state tit

Can we PLEASE keep the political crap out of here?!

I'd appreciate it if you'd post it on the blog.

snoloco wrote

Can we PLEASE keep the political crap out of here?!

Sno, when NYS owns and operates these ski areas, any discussions about them are inherently political.

Someone in a high position expressed this same idea ^^ today to me, privately, today.

I don't think incentives for business are a handout. I guess that is obvious at this point.

Windham and Hunter have both recently invested in their infrastructure and have further plans on doing so.  

Prior to the sale, Hunter did a large overhaul of the snowmaking system adding an entire fleet of HKD Impulse guns to replace older less efficient equipment all over the mountain.  They replaced the old HSQ with a new 6-pack and rebuilt the old lift to be used on the West Side.  Recently, the new ownership just announced a plan to expand intermediate terrain, which is one thing they currently lack.

Windham recently built a large number of new lodging units, cut three new trails with snowmaking (Windfall, Wolf Pack, and Wildcat), and did large scale snowmaking opportunities.  An Instagram post made in October 2015 hinted at a possible bubble chair replacing the F-Lift which could be coming as early as 18-19.

While they are certainly within their right to criticize taxpayer funded upgrades at Belleayre, it doesn't seem like they are being crippled by them.  After all, which two Catskill ski areas always have the highest skier visits.

IMO, people are making a huge deal about the Belleayre gondola just because it's a gondola.  It's nothing more than Belleayre following behind Hunter and Windham in getting a second high speed lift.  Windham got their second high speed lift (East Peak Express) in 2006, when Belleayre got their first (Superchief).  Hunter installed their second high speed lift in 2010 when they built the 6-pack, but didn't operate two until 2011 when they reinstalled the old HSQ on the west side.

If Hunter's expansion goes according to plan, they'll be the first of the big three to get a 3rd high speed lift in 2018.  If Windham does a bubble chair like I'm predicting, they'll also be getting a 3rd high speed lift.

snoloco wrote

Can we PLEASE keep the political crap out of here?!

This Gondi is 110% political because the Gov is planning to run for Potus.  If Hill or Bernie had been elected no way This Gondi gets built.  

This total waste of money that no one in the skiing world thinks is a good idea.  What happened to the building the ski bridge over the parking lot?  Are they still doing that?  If not how can you even lap this lift?

This is a set-up for the Highmount expansion.  They will need this lift for access to the new terrain once they build two additional lifts to the west of Tomahawk.  The gondola and current Tomahawk lift will be at the center of the combined resort

The original Highmount expansion plan called for a two stage HSQ with the upper stage replacing Tomahawk and the lower stage as an access point from the base lodge.  That was a horrible plan as it would've meant there would be no lappable lift in the Tomahawk section.  On two stage HSQ's, you can only load onto a completely empty chair at mid for safety reasons.  All it takes is just enough people coming up from the bottom so that there's people on most of the chairs and you don't have any capacity at mid.  They changed that plan to have the gondola as the sole access lift from the base, and keeping the existing Tomahawk for lapping the upper terrain.  The skier bridge is planned, so intermediate skiers will get a nice long run combining Deer Run and the new trail (it has decent pitch most of the way to the bottom).  I'm not sure if they will run Tomahawk midweek.  From a capacity standpoint, they don't need to.  The gondola will have all the capacity needed for that section with a midweek crowd size.  From an access standpoint, they may need to because Tomahawk allows intermediate skiers to use the mid station and ski the lower portions of Deer Run, Seneca, etc and connect to Overlook Lodge via Expressway, while only advanced skiers will be able to do that from the gondola.  They will eventually cut a new trail off the top to bypass the steep sections of the trails at the top, but not for 17-18.

Say what you want about the Belleayre Gondola, but it sure makes a lot more sense than a lift from Kids Kampus to mid at Whiteface which will do nothing but pack hundreds if not thousands more people onto the already most crowded trail on the mountain (Boreen).  Luckily that isn't happening this year in favor of the Porcupine Lodge renovation and snowmaking upgrades.  Recently had a back and forth with Aaron Kellett on email and learned a lot about what's happening on the mountain this summer, but I'm not sure if he is ok with me sharing it here.

 

Harvey wrote

I don't think incentives for business are a handout. I guess that is obvious at this point.

Any business or just the ones that benefit you?

Windham is head and shoulders above the ORDA facilities. Hunter is in pretty good shape as well. This whole discussion is really about Platty & your buddy Laz.

Whiteface should build a dorm for a "storm crew".  Key staff needed to clear parking lot, open lodge, open gondi/facelift/summit and patrol when we get hit with storms.  You can't blame someone making 8 bucks an hour and most likely driving a beater with bald tires on hazards roads for not showing up to work on time when the county is advising people to stay off the roads.

Getting open on time or early on storm days be a huge plus for WF's reputation.