$20M for Whiteface and Gore + $8M for Belle

I believe that the NYS agencies Orda, Thruway, Port etc have a mandate to try to operate as close as possible to break even or make a small profit and charge user fees appropriate to assure this happens while limiting expenses to balance.  Crap happens and it doesnt always work out but that is supposed to be the plan.  The exception seems to be Bellerye which is a has never once turned a profit.

Coach Z wrote

The exception seems to be Belleayre which is a has never once turned a profit.

How do you know this?  Before Bell was part of ORDA, I believe ORDA got state funding every year.

Does the bobsled run turn a profit?  Did you tell us once that your electric rates were subsidized?

Coach Z wrote

I believe that the NYS agencies Orda, Thruway, Port etc have a mandate to try to operate as close as possible to break even or make a small profit and charge user fees appropriate to assure this happens while limiting expenses to balance.  Crap happens and it doesnt always work out but that is supposed to be the plan.  The exception seems to be Bellerye which is a has never once turned a profit.

ORDA's capital improvements come directly from NYS and there expectations of contributions from some local towns around LP. How is that anything like break even?

Mass transit systems' fare box recovery never gets anywhere near break even.

There is no way the NYS Thruway Authority can finanace the new Tappan Zee Bridge alone. So far, the $4 billion cost has $1.6 billion low interset financing from the US Dept of Transportation, and $2 billion in NYS bank settlement funds have been committed to support Thruway capital improvements and help pay for the new Tappan Zee Bridge. The rest is coming from Thruway Bonds. There is no way NYS Thruway tolls alone could support the rebuilding of the bridge.

This is the reality of most government projects and agencies. If the government was required to break even or turn a small profit the USA would shut down tomorrow.

So using Coach's argument, we should shut down all non WF and Gore ORDA properties, all state parks, all non tolled highways, all transit systems in urban areas, all emergency services, and everything else that is taxpayer funded.

http://www.timesunion.com/tuplus-local/article/Lake-Placid-Olympic-venues-post-record-losses-10872276.php

I wonder how much road tolls and water and sewer fees would be if the for profit camp were in charge?    

Campy
cant read that article without a subscription to the times union
can you cut and paste the relevant info

Clearly for govt owned agencies capex needs to be spent and it won't be covered out of operating fund but covered by bonds.  The interest and principle for those bonds though needs to be serviced for that agency to stay solvent so that is covered by user fees for use.  

Let's take the Tappenzee for instance.  Tolls are $5 and ~135k cars a day pay that according to wiki.  That is $246M per year times 30 years even if tolls don't go up which I'm sure they will you have about $7.4 Billion which will cover that debt plus interest as well as the operating expense for the bridge itself.  That bridge is programmed to break even no matter what year after year.  If that bridge lasts 60 years like the last one did they will be making money like crazy in the later years though mait costs certainly will rise.

You build big bridges and capex projects when they are a no brainer to succeed.  You don't put a 8 lane bridge to cross a small creek on a low traffic back road as it wont generate enough usage to pay for itself - that is what a Gondi on a just over a 1000 vert feet ski hill is.  Too much capex to ever expect to break even but the Gov is running for Potus so this is what we get as taxpayers.

It won't let me back in now either. I was able to read it once. It basically stated that ORDA is puking money as far as losses go. They are far from making money. They lost something like 24 million in 15-16 with NYS kicking in an additional 19 million.

Every winter sport business lost its ass in 15-16 due to the winter that wasn't.  I don't think you can use that year as a talking point.

Traditionally WF and Gore make profits in good years, lose money in bad years and are around break even the middle years.  All the other Orda venues except the skating / hockey arena also lose money though the town of North Elba pays in $5-10 M per year which covers much of those other losses.  When you factor in all the state and local tax revenue into the equation the LP ops make money for the state hand over fist.  Gore is probably a break even as it generates much less lodging, shopping and restaurant tax revenue and since there is really nothing to spend money on within 40 miles of Belleyre except for a diner there is no sales tax benefit at all down there.

My point to posting that article is that ORDA does not make money, it states that clearly in the article. It pukes money on a regular basis, so why hate on puking in the Cats vs. the Dacks. It seems strange to me. Heck, I'd love to see them puke money here in CNY.

ORDA Received Almost $5M from MTA
Cuomo directed unusual transfer to ‘help stabilize ORDA’s finances’

LAKE PLACID — What’s come to be known as “the winter that wasn’t” in 2015-16 was so bad for business at state-owned ski centers such as Whiteface Mountain that Gov. Andrew Cuomo swooped in late last winter and directed a major downstate authority, cash-strapped in its own right, to expedite funds to this region’s state Olympic Regional Development Authority.

In March 2016, Cuomo’s administration directed the downstate-based Metropolitan Transportation Authority, the largest public transit authority in the U.S., to write a $4.9 million check to ORDA after its ski centers ailed from a lack of business amid 2015-16’s mild weather. ORDA owns and operates Whiteface Mountain Ski Center in Wilmington, Gore Mountain Ski Center in North Creek and Belleayre Ski Center in the Catskills.

The inter-authority transfer of funds was atypical, as Cuomo’s administration told the MTA to send the money directly to ORDA rather than to the state’s Division of Budget, which could then reallocate funds to ORDA.

Morris Peters, public information officer for the state’s Division of Budget, said in an email Monday that the Cuomo administration issued this directive because “the best way to expedite the payment in the middle of a fiscal year was to instruct the MTA to redirect their payment to where it was needed immediately.

“The 2015-16 ski season was historically bad and the state stepped in to help stabilize ORDA’s finances,” Peters wrote.

By March 2017, snow conditions had greatly improved over the prior year at Whiteface Mountain Ski Center in Wilmington, one of three ski areas run by New York state’s Olympic Regional Development Authority.
(Enterprise photo — Chris Knight)
By March 2017, snow conditions had greatly improved over the prior year at Whiteface Mountain Ski Center in Wilmington, one of three ski areas run by New York state’s Olympic Regional Development Authority. (Enterprise photo — Chris Knight)

“By law,” he continued, “authorities must reimburse the state for expenses incurred on their behalf, and the MTA was required to reimburse the state for $5 million worth of expenses. At the same time, the state endeavored to quickly direct a similar amount to ORDA to assist with that season’s precipitous loss of revenues.”

Peters added that the state routinely performs services for state authorities, for which it later bills them. For the MTA, he said, this includes administering federal aid such as core Federal Highway Funds, processing payments of transit aid to MTA, safety oversight and incident management.

Peters also cited the state’s Public Authorities Law, which stipulates that the state can recover governmental costs from public authorities and public benefit corporations for certain services the state provides to them.

“These expenses include personal service costs,” Peters wrote, “maintenance and operation of state equipment and facilities, and contractual services that are provided by the state to public authorities that are not otherwise reimbursed.”

Peters said that this year alone, major public authorities were billed a total of $39.7 million in cost recovery fees, including $11.641 million to the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority, $5.853 million to Battery Park, $6.405 million to the New York State Housing Finance Agency and $4.727 million to the New York State Environmental Facilities Corporation.

A request for comment sent to ORDA Director of Communications Jon Lundin was redirected to Peters and the state’s Division of Budget.

As of last October, the MTA had $36.7 billion of outstanding debt as it eyes an ambitious capital plan for 2015 to 2019. Meanwhile, many commuters in the greater New York City area are upset with rising fares and deteriorating services. In October, after much public quibbling, Cuomo and city Mayor Bill de Blasio agreed to terms on the $26 billion capital plan.

For ORDA, even with a financial bounce-back this winter thanks to colder winter temperatures and much more snow compared to 2015-16, the past few years have been very tough. The authority has incurred some of its highest operating losses ever: $19.5 million in 2013-14, $25.4 million in 2015-16 and a total of nearly $200 million over the last decade.

ORDA’s operating revenues dropped by 25 percent from 2014-15 to 2015-16 as Whiteface’s total yearly revenue dropped from $9.5 million to $7.7 million year-over-year. Whiteface received just 58 inches of natural snow and more than 17 inches of rain in 2015-16, compared to a typical average of more than 100 inches of snow.

The authority’s longtime CEO, Ted Blazer, announced his retirement in December and was succeeded by former Gore Mountain General Manager Mike Pratt. In May, former Gore Mountain Business Manager Peggy Evatt began her tenure as ORDA’s chief financial officer. She succeeded Padraig Power, who served as CFO for nearly five years through the turbulent financial times for the authority.

At ORDA’s board meeting last month, it reported that it bettered its operating loss this year to $20.7 million, compared with $25.4 million in 2015-16.

Cuomo also has pledged $20 million worth of upgrades to its winter sports facilities at Whiteface and Gore mountains and at Mount Van Hoevenberg in Lake Placid, with a specific focus of emphasizing year-round attractions. At Mount Van Hoevenberg — currently home of the state’s bobsled-luge-skeleton track, cross-country skiing and biathlon venues — the state wants to finance the construction of the longest “mountain coaster” in the United States. At Whiteface, the state plans to build one of the longest zip lines in North America. Cuomo said in January that Whiteface and Gore aren’t good enough to compete globally without upscale amenities and conveniences and year-round attractions.

It must be such a relief to run a biz and not have to worry about making a profit

Conservative, consistent, prioritized investments in ORDA's skiing assets makes a lot more sense than the "if you build it they will come" mentality that seems to be driving the Belleayre build-out and, to some extent, the Belleayre gondola which in itself seems more of a political statement than a critical skier investment. Incidentally, does anyone know what's holding up the Highmount acquisition?  

Moresnow wrote

  a critical skier investment.

Skier investment??? ORDA has lost 200 million in the last ten years. How is that an investment?

Hey mister they could have lost 300 million do let's cut them some slack.

bored at work

What you're missing is that all those wedding parties, bikers, hikers, zip liners, amusement ride users etc. that are expected to flock to ORDA facilities due to Gov. Cuomo's  generosity will suddenly put ORDA in the black. In government speak, ORDA is not insolvent, just temporarily out of cash to pay bills, easily remedied by higher taxes and creative bookkeeping. What is really missing from ORDA's facilities is a waterpark. Imagine, the "Waterpark at Belleayre or Gore". Has a nice ring to it and should only cost a couple hundred mill. Maybe next year.  

Without Belleayre Orda doesn't need that $5M from the MTA.  After a good year Orda is going to get asked to pay that back to some other agency maybe to pay for the afore mentioned bridge.  Certainly the LP area has generated enough in sales tax revenue to cover those losses back to the counties and state.  If you figure $20m per year LP and the Gore area need to take in $250M in taxable sales per year not factoring in the income tax from employees and the profit on local businesses which would greatly lower that amount but I don't have time to do the calculations to figure that out right now/

My personal biggest fear with Belleayre losing money is with a different Gov these Orda loses may not be tolerated any longer and the leash gets really short or the plug pulled for WF and Gore.  We get some downstate City folk dude as Gov who runs on raining free stuff for the cities and screw the hicks in the sticks are we are royally screwed.  

You don't sacrifice the undisputed top two ski areas in the state for a third rate at best mo hill in the Cats which is maybe the 10th best ski area in the state.  Sorry its selfish but that is just not a good ski area and all the Gondi's in the world is not going to change that.

campgottagopee wrote

It must be such a relief to run a biz and not have to worry about making a profit

Haha! Camp for the win!

Coach Z you're missing the point. Once built, the planned $30 to $40 million lower mountain lodge (think big lodge surrounded by bunny slopes) with gold plated bidets and ultra fine dining will attract the region's if not the world's finest skiers thus making Belleayre into a profitable, world class ski resort capable of carrying the financial burden of Gore and WF. The planned amphitheater for the upper mountain lodge seals the deal. Albany has it all figured out. All kidding aside, as a Belleayre regular, I share your concern from a different perspective. It wasn't that many years ago that Belleayre's financial woes were raising hackles in Albany. Belleayre needs a little TLC, not a makeover for the rich, famous and politically well connected patrons of the adjoined mega resort.