$20M for Whiteface and Gore + $8M for Belle

You could have started the piece with "As much as I've tried...."    

All NY ski areas benefit me. NY is great and I love all her hills.

No question Plattekill is vulnerable as the only small family-owned ski area remaining in the Cats. But this affects others too. At the end of last season SANY and GMs from several private ski areas went to Albany to lobby for tax relief on electricity for snowmaking.  (The private ski areas pay 8%.)  I believe that Bristol, Oak Mountain, Greek Peak, Holiday Valley, Windham, Hunter and Plattekill were there. Chip Seamans has been especially vocal on this topic.

ScottyJack wrote

Whiteface should build a dorm for a "storm crew".  Key staff needed to clear parking lot, open lodge, open gondi/facelift/summit and patrol when we get hit with storms.  You can't blame someone making 8 bucks an hour and most likely driving a beater with bald tires on hazards roads for not showing up to work on time when the county is advising people to stay off the roads.

Getting open on time or early on storm days be a huge plus for WF's reputation.

I agree with this.  Add Lookout and LWF to the list of key lifts too.

ScottyJack wrote

most likely driving a beater with bald tires.....

WF employees can use vehicles for personal use?

Harvey wrote

 At the end of last season SANY and GMs from several private ski areas went to Albany to lobby for tax relief on electricity for snowmaking.  (The private ski areas pay 8%.)

A few years ago, I tried to get my company to go after SANY as a client but that never really went anywhere.  If what you wrote is true, SANY is getting bad advice. Everybody pays the same utility taxes (and it's way more than 8%), they're not going to get off the hook from that.  If they asked me, I would have told them to go after a NYPA hydro contract or a demand management program payment from the utilities or maybe some kind of renewable deal, if they haven't already done all that.  Maybe structure something that settles their Belleayre complaints too.

mm

This is a fun idea. Feed em and get em Netfix too.

Harvey, the Belleayre full build-out at $70 million in taxpayer funding (maybe $80 million plus in today's dollars) and the twinning of Belleayre with the adjoining upscale private mega-resort constitutes a "category killer" not unlike the effect of big box stores on local commerce. Sadly, the Belleayre UMP, a deeply flawed document, skirts this issue. Competition is good, fair competition is better. Plattekill, a gem of a mountain, makes an important contribution to the economic health of the region. Why aren't the local political types falling over backwards to rally for Plattekill the way they do for Belleayre?

Moresnow wrote

Why aren't the local political types falling over backwards to rally for Plattekill the way they do for Belleayre?

 Maybe the political types feel they can load Belleayre's  payroll with cronies and they can't do the same with Platte.

tom

It's because they know with certainty that a private business would out of their mind and would never get financing to invest that much in the Western Catskills

So if Plattykill is so good why have they not surpassed Windham? Platty, like many small resorts tailor to a niche market. A HSQ would ruin it. People who ski Platty will continue to until the place falls apart. I have not heard a single person say they will stop going there after Bell puts in a Gondi. I have not heard a single person say they want double the crowd on Plattys limited terrain or fighting for space in the lodge. Most importantly, who wants to see ORDA run Platty?

  Plattekill is that good Peetex, Come give it a try after a natural snow event, you will love it. Most people that ski it love it just the way it is.l
    Would love to someday ride the Tanglewood lift they bought a few years ago ,just for nostalgia!

If Platty had access to more investment it would be interesting to see what they would do.  Increased snowmaking for sure.

I don't know how much land they have but it would seem that they could expand off both sides particularly the far lookers left could be really nice to add another lift and trail pod.  The one thing they shouldn't do is put in HSQs.  It certainly has a niche for better skiers and the best expert terrain in the Cats.  It also would seem to have some really nice family skiing on the skiers left pod at what I assume are more reasonable prices than the others in the area.

The problem is no bank is going to loan the big bucks when they have a state run competitor that is closer to the Thruway spending stupid money on stupid things.  Harv' prposal is spot on the state should help fianance expansion here and at other private ops to level the playing field .

Gunny J wrote

Plattekill is that good Peetex, Come give it a try after a natural snow event, you will love it. Most people that ski it love it just the way it is.l
    Would love to someday ride the Tanglewood lift they bought a few years ago ,just for nostalgia!

You missed my drift, I was not doubting that for a moment, but I also don't think turning it into another Windham is what you really want.

Moresnow wrote

Harvey, the Belleayre full build-out at $70 million in taxpayer funding (maybe $80 million plus in today's dollars) and the twinning of Belleayre with the adjoining upscale private mega-resort constitutes a "category killer" not unlike the effect of big box stores on local commerce. Sadly, the Belleayre UMP, a deeply flawed document, skirts this issue. Competition is good, fair competition is better. Plattekill, a gem of a mountain, makes an important contribution to the economic health of the region. Why aren't the local political types falling over backwards to rally for Plattekill the way they do for Belleayre?

What should NYS do here, let Belleayre, an important NYS asset, continue to flounder along? Should we pretend that the job situation in the Catskills is in good shape? When Lazlo bought Plattekill in the early 1990s, Belleayre was in operation. There is no way he thought that NYS would never update Belleayre.

The Belleayre build out is not a "category killer", as drawing more people to the area will only help Lazlo and Plattekill and will have very little effect on Hunter and Windham. I have always enjoyed my days at Belleayre and adding Highmount will only enhance the skiing. But anybody skiing at Belleayre will be able to see Plattekill across the valley and will want to try Plattekill. If more people actually stay overnight in the area, it will only be a 20 minute ride to Plattekill, not an extra 20 minutes on a 2 hour, one way day trip.

While everybody has opinions about the UMP, Belleayre is still only a 2 hour ride from NYC. If they ever get build out finished, it will be a huge positive for the Catskills.

x10003q wrote

Moresnow wrote

Harvey, the Belleayre full build-out at $70 million in taxpayer funding (maybe $80 million plus in today's dollars) and the twinning of Belleayre with the adjoining upscale private mega-resort constitutes a "category killer" not unlike the effect of big box stores on local commerce. Sadly, the Belleayre UMP, a deeply flawed document, skirts this issue. Competition is good, fair competition is better. Plattekill, a gem of a mountain, makes an important contribution to the economic health of the region. Why aren't the local political types falling over backwards to rally for Plattekill the way they do for Belleayre?

What should NYS do here, let Belleayre, an important NYS asset, continue to flounder along? Should we pretend that the job situation in the Catskills is in good shape? When Lazlo bought Plattekill in the early 1990s, Belleayre was in operation. There is no way he thought that NYS would never update Belleayre.

The Belleayre build out is not a "category killer", as drawing more people to the area will only help Lazlo and Plattekill and will have very little effect on Hunter and Windham. I have always enjoyed my days at Belleayre and adding Highmount will only enhance the skiing. But anybody skiing at Belleayre will be able to see Plattekill across the valley and will want to try Plattekill. If more people actually stay overnight in the area, it will only be a 20 minute ride to Plattekill, not an extra 20 minutes on a 2 hour, one way day trip.

While everybody has opinions about the UMP, Belleayre is still only a 2 hour ride from NYC. If they ever get build out finished, it will be a huge positive for the Catskills.

First off it's well established on here that there is no decent lodging in that area.  You either have to go back to Kingston or to Hunter or Windham to stay.

And it's not a good idea to throw good money after bad.  If Belleryre can't make money you don't invest millions more in a losing business.  No private business would do so and neither should the govt especially if it does so at the expense of private businesses.

x10003q wrote

What should NYS do here, let Belleayre, an important NYS asset, continue to flounder along? Should we pretend that the job situation in the Catskills is in good shape? When Lazlo bought Plattekill in the early 1990s, Belleayre was in operation. There is no way he thought that NYS would never update Belleayre.

The Belleayre build out is not a "category killer", as drawing more people to the area will only help Lazlo and Plattekill and will have very little effect on Hunter and Windham. I have always enjoyed my days at Belleayre and adding Highmount will only enhance the skiing. But anybody skiing at Belleayre will be able to see Plattekill across the valley and will want to try Plattekill. If more people actually stay overnight in the area, it will only be a 20 minute ride to Plattekill, not an extra 20 minutes on a 2 hour, one way day trip.

While everybody has opinions about the UMP, Belleayre is still only a 2 hour ride from NYC. If they ever get build out finished, it will be a huge positive for the Catskills.

Coach Z wrote

First off it's well established on here that there is no decent lodging in that area.  You either have to go back to Kingston or to Hunter or Windham to stay.

Exactly. This is a major part of the plan - to build housing on the mountain at Belleayre for overnight visitors.

Coach Z wrote

And it's not a good idea to throw good money after bad.  If Belleryre can't make money you don't invest millions more in a losing business.  No private business would do so and neither should the govt especially if it does so at the expense of private businesses.

While  "it's not a good idea to throw good money after bad" gets rolled out all the time, it does not apply here.

First, Belleayre is still recovering from decades of DEC mismanagement.
Second, if NYS had run Belleayre properly for the last 25 years, there would have been millions spent on continuous capital improvement. How much has been spent on Gore and WF since 1995?
Third, Belleayre is owned by NYS and that is very difficult to change. Should NYS let it fail?
Fourth, Belleayre also exists in area with strict building requirements due to the Catskill Park and the NYC watershed limits. Only NYS could ever get this done.
Fifth, 2 hours from NYC and less than 3:40 from Philly. That is a huge market for Belleayre, if they market it right.

I agree with X for once.  Belleayre has always been behind Hunter and Windham in terms of upgrades.  Windham got their second detachable in 2006 and Hunter did in 2011.  Belleayre only got their first detachable when Windham got their second and now in 2017 they'll be getting their second.  I predict Hunter and Windham will be getting their third detachables within the next few years.

Belleayre has been greatly expanded relatively recently however.  In 1999, they added the Tomahawk lift to replace the T Bar and expand terrain.  They added Dot Nebel and Deer Run as part of this, rerouted Esopus, Peekamoose, Pepacton, and Seneca down to the Tomahawk lift, adding snowmaking to all of them.  They also made a first attempt at solving parking issues at Overlook by replacing the summit double with the fixed grip Superchief and extending the lift further down to connect to the lower parking lot and lodge.  Additional parking was also added at the Tomahawk lift.  The Onondaga trail was cut around 2002 and the Superchief lift upgraded to high speed in 2006.  Quite an upgrade over what they had before that wave of upgrades.

Coach just wants Belleayre to fail because he doesn't want to have to go there (or any other mountain south of Albany) for races.

I don't want Bellyre to fail but instead predict that it will never be profitable so for goodness sakes stop investing in it.

It should be strictly run to do no worse than break even and when it be shown to break even for a couple years in a row only then should it receive conservative investment.

If Bellerye didn't host races I would be forced to go to Hunter which is far worse in my book.

Huntah? Forget about it. How ya doin?

Coach Z wrote

It should be strictly run to do no worse than break even and when it be shown to break even for a couple years in a row only then should it receive conservative investment.

Government would cease to exist if they only invested in things that show a profit.  As far as I know the big bank bailout was the only government program to turn a profit it a long time.