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GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

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Rj1972

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

Adk Jeff wrote

Anyone in business knows that the cost of getting a NEW customer is 10 times the cost of keeping your EXISTING customer. Your existing customers - especially the long-term, loyal ones - are GOLD. When you give away for free to NEW customers the same product that your LOYAL customers have been paying for all along, you're going to alienate those loyal customers.

I don't think this is the answer:

Harvey wrote

Is it accurate to say that if Togg peeps couldn't ski GP and GP peeps couldn't ski Togg you'd be ok with it?

But it doesn't take much marketing creativity to come up with a plan that would have given everybody something without disenfranchising the existing, higher priced customers. For example, passholders at each mountain this season get 2 or 3 free day tickets for checking out the other mountain, or pass reciprocity is honored between mountains Mon-Fri (non-holiday), ALONG WITH an announcement that a new pricing structure for dual-mountain passes is expected to be available for the NEXT season. Throw in restructured family pass pricing for the win.

What I'm talking about here^^ is not a case of "Hindsight is 20-20." It's basic business sense.

Again, I go back to my premise of years past: Marc and John are out of their element, and are relying on the individuals who ran the place into the ground to run the current business. GP does not have a single marketing expert. A bunch of amateurs are handling sales and marketing. Do we need revisit the marketing of the High Speed Express Quad chairlift?

In terms of the shadiness factor, how many small ski areas impose a 4 % resort fee that isn't mentioned until the time of the sale, or in the case of F&B, after the sale?

Another reason that the reciprocity may seem a bit imbalanced in terms of current pass pricing is because they want to drive traffic from Togg to Cortland County, and not necessarily the other direction. I'm convinced Marc and John used some or all of the $800k Cortland County marketing grant to purchase Togg.

tjf1967

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

In reply to this post by Snowballs

When did the owners buy togg? When did people buy their Greek pass? Right, before the purchase of togg. They got what they purchased. If any one buys a pass to Greek now they will just get it from togg and save a few bucks. Am I missing something?

campgottagopee

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

tjf1967 wrote

When did the owners buy togg?

Whenever this thread started - 2 weeks ago?

tjf1967 wrote

When did people buy their Greek pass?

I think the early buy price deadline was March or April of this year.

tjf1967 wrote

They got what they purchased.

100% correct

tjf1967 wrote

If any one buys a pass to Greek now they will just get it from togg and save a few bucks.

If not they are stupid.

tjf1967 wrote

Am I missing something?

Nope, you nailed it bro

Harvey

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

Administrator

In reply to this post by Rj1972

I'm not saying these guys are great marketers or even that they know how to run a ski area. All I'm saying is that I don't think they are shady or crooked. I could be wrong about all of it.

If you really believe they aren't ethical, be straight up. Instead of posting a bunch of smack on the internet, go to see them the next time you are at the hill and tell them so. I'd be curious to know what happens.

I remember the first time I did that. It changed my outlook.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

campgottagopee

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

In reply to this post by Rj1972

Rj1972 wrote

Marc and John are out of their element,

Obviously!
Let's see ---- we have new lifts, new snowmaking, new bar, new rental, new repair, new deck, new downhill mountain biking, Trax open year round, the hotel was the busiest (if not busier) than I've ever seen it in the summer, AND a new place to ski this winter. DUDE, you're right! They suck at what they do

tjf1967

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

Gees it looks to me you guys are getting a lot more for your buck then you were the 3 years ago. What the heck are people complaining about? Isn't the difference less than 200 bucks? It would be cool to see them give rj back his 500 , apologize for not meeting his expectations and send him down the road to some other mountain.

Rj1972

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

In reply to this post by campgottagopee

campgottagopee wrote

Rj1972 wrote

Marc and John are out of their element,

Obviously!
Let's see ---- we have new lifts, new snowmaking, new bar, new rental, new repair, new deck, new downhill mountain biking, Trax open year round, the hotel was the busiest (if not busier) than I've ever seen it in the summer, AND a new place to ski this winter. DUDE, you're right! They suck at what they do

...or was most of this simply John and Marc beginning to work on all of the deferred maintenance projects because they were not saddled with the debt incurred with the construction of the hotel, adventure center, etc. Let's not forget that two insurance settlements and a lawsuit paid for quite a refresh of the base area, rental shop, repair shop, pump houses, and so on.

Certainly the hotel is seeing more traffic, but at a cost. Nearly all remaining timeshares were sold at pennies on the dollar, and are now being filled through Groupon traffic, which is taking a toll on the facilities. The hotel will definitely need a renovation before long. Very few timeshares remain to be sold, so that cash cow is nearly depleted.

I'm not saying John and Marc have done nothing to the place. They certainly had an impact. Their continued commitment to annual investments in infrastructure is certainly noticed and appreciated, but let's not act as though they rescued the place. Others with much deeper pockets were standing in line.

Rj1972

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by tjf1967

tjf1967 wrote

Gees it looks to me you guys are getting a lot more for your buck then you were the 3 years ago. What the heck are people complaining about? Isn't the difference less than 200 bucks? It would be cool to see them give rj back his 500 , apologize for not meeting his expectations and send him down the road to some other mountain.

HaHa! Nah, I actually like the place. It offers the best skiing in CNY, and I'll be hanging around for a while. My point was not the price of the season pass. Heck, $399 is less than four days at Killington or about three days at Vail. It was simply my perception of the current marketing of Togg passes versus GP passes. Plus, John and Marc would never refund a penny. John and I had a discussion over the a cascade club memberships, and he cried the blues financially.

It's all in good fun.

We've had some great debates and discussions.

campgottagopee

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

In reply to this post by Rj1972

Rj1972 wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Rj1972 wrote

Marc and John are out of their element,

Obviously!
Let's see ---- we have new lifts, new snowmaking, new bar, new rental, new repair, new deck, new downhill mountain biking, Trax open year round, the hotel was the busiest (if not busier) than I've ever seen it in the summer, AND a new place to ski this winter. DUDE, you're right! They suck at what they do

...or was most of this simply John and Marc beginning to work on all of the deferred maintenance projects because they were not saddled with the debt incurred with the construction of the hotel, adventure center, etc. Let's not forget that two insurance settlements and a lawsuit paid for quite a refresh of the base area, rental shop, repair shop, pump houses, and so on.

Who cares?!? They didn't build that boat anchor, and they certainly didn't pocket any of the monies you mentioned. I'm not convinced someone else would've done the same. HELL, they don't even take a paycheck out of place.

Rj1972 wrote

Certainly the hotel is seeing more traffic, but at a cost. Nearly all remaining timeshares were sold at pennies on the dollar, and are now being filled through Groupon traffic, which is taking a toll on the facilities. The hotel will definitely need a renovation before long. Very few timeshares remain to be sold, so that cash cow is nearly depleted.

Bodies spend money. It's really that simple.

Rj1972 wrote

I'm not saying John and Marc have done nothing to the place. They certainly had an impact. Their continued commitment to annual investments in infrastructure is certainly noticed and appreciated, but let's not act as though they rescued the place. Others with much deeper pockets were standing in line.

They did rescue the place, they bought it out of BK at a public auction. So why didn't Mr. Deep Pockets step up and put in a higher bid?

Rj1972

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

1. They pulled in a few million from the timeshare fire sale. Now if they actually turn the place around to the point where there is demand for real estate, they will need to engage in new construction, a much costlier proposition.

2. They are making very little money off of the Groupon room sales, as Groupon's commission is high, timeshare owners need to be paid, flash sale customers spend little on any form of up selling, including at the Acorn or Adventure Center. Plus, competition is creeping in from other indoor water park hotels being constructed, or recently opened. Even Kalahari and Great Wolf are showing up on Groupon from time to time due to a market that is beginning to see some saturation. There's a lot that I don't know, but I do know quite a bit about the hotel industry.

3. The bankruptcy judge actually turned down other bids because they liked two local business men owning the place. Marc and John put together a very comprehensive business plan. There was a $20m offer that was rejected by the court.

Adk Jeff

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

In reply to this post by Harvey

Harvey wrote

I'm not saying these guys are great marketers or even that they know how to run a ski area. All I'm saying is that I don't think they are shady or crooked. I could be wrong about all of it.

It's a pretty long stretch to go from "alienating long-term customers" to shady and crooked.
About the only "shady and crooked" that I recall was Campy's admiration for businesses who engage in larceny, and I'm pretty sure he was just joking about that anyway.

Harvey wrote

Instead of posting a bunch of smack on the internet

I've got plenty of respect for anyone who's a GM in this business, and I've talked with my share of them, but it's the nature of the game that you're going to get second-guessed, Monday-morning-quarterbacked and armchair-managed by me, you, and every other skier on the interwebz. Whether it's snowmaking, grooming, pass pricing or whatever, ski area managers are going to get scrutinized by their customers (OK, maybe not most of the customers, maybe just us 5% nut jubs). I'm sure that the GP guys have tough enough skin, and if they don't they'll have to grow some or move on.

Harvey

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG

Administrator

Adk Jeff wrote

I've got plenty of respect for anyone who's a GM in this business, and I've talked with my share of them, but it's the nature of the game that you're going to get second-guessed, Monday-morning-quarterbacked and armchair-managed by me, you, and every other skier on the interwebz. Whether it's snowmaking, grooming, pass pricing or whatever, ski area managers are going to get scrutinized by their customers (OK, maybe not most of the customers, maybe just us 5% nut jubs). I'm sure that the GP guys have tough enough skin, and if they don't they'll have to grow some or move on.

Me too.

This place runs on Monday morning QB'ing and customers often exercise their right to be cranky. I do for sure. Just not on the internet. Much.

And you are right, they really don't take any of this stuff seriously.

I don't see how anyone can fault M+J for buying the hill and assets at the lowest price possible.

My only real point: I don't see a conspiracy.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

skimore

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

In reply to this post by billyymc

billyymc wrote

What Greek could have done is allow the GP pass holders access to both mountain, and allow the Tog pass holders the ability to "buy up" their passes if they want to ski both. I.e. - Tog pass holders pay the difference between what they paid for their Tog pass, and the pre-season price of a GP pass.

You're assuming they perceive any value in this. It's quite possible that the Tog people aren't flocking to Greek to get one over on everyone. The place ain't all that. It's kind of the same shit that's in their backyard that takes them 10 minutes to get to.

Rj1972

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

I don't necessarily see a conspiracy either, but rather an attempt to maximize the selling price of GP passes by making no mention of the Togg benefit on the GP website. The risk is that when the GP pass holder who spends $599 and realizes it could have been had for $345, may just not want to patronize the establishment in the future. I don't believe this was thought out very well, unless it was intended for one way traffic only. Marc and John made no other mention as to how they plan to spend the $800k CNY marketing grant. However, they have mentioned numerous times that the Togg purchase will drive traffic to Cortland County. Why would driving traffic to Cortland county be newsworthy in relation to Togg unless it had something to do with justifying the spending of the grant for personal gain.

Not to beat it to death, but again I'm not convinced that many people know about the acquisition unless they live in CNY.

Rj1972

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by Harvey

Harvey wrote

I don't see how anyone can fault M+J for buying the hill and assets at the lowest price possible.

Absolutely, I agree that if you are going to buy something, get the best value you can. However, John and Marc acted as if they were sent from the heavens to save GP because it was the place they spent so much time at over the decades. If that was the case, I'd want whoever had the deepest pockets in line to come in and invest in the place that was so special to me. Egos got in the way.

I wish I knew what it was, but I just don't care for the duo. John has a temper and Marc just wants to party like he did when he attended college in Florida. I give John a lot of credit for building his own CNC business from the ground up. That certainly takes a special person to do that. In terms of Marc, he was handed the family business to run, which he seems to be doing ok with.

Thacheronix

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG

I think I want to party like Marc did when he was in Florida too

Rj1972

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG

Thacheronix wrote

I think I want to party like Marc did when he was in Florida too

Your wish could come true. Simply purchase a neglected ski area, renovate the restaurant, and build the largest deck in upstate NY. It's as simple as that.

campgottagopee

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

In reply to this post by skimore

skimore wrote

billyymc wrote

What Greek could have done is allow the GP pass holders access to both mountain, and allow the Tog pass holders the ability to "buy up" their passes if they want to ski both. I.e. - Tog pass holders pay the difference between what they paid for their Tog pass, and the pre-season price of a GP pass.

You're assuming they perceive any value in this. It's quite possible that the Tog people aren't flocking to Greek to get one over on everyone. The place ain't all that. It's kind of the same shit that's in their backyard that takes them 10 minutes to get to.

I was going to make that exact same point. I doubt too many Togg peeps would make the drive until all terrain was in play. Skiing groomers is just that.

campgottagopee

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG

In reply to this post by Rj1972

Rj1972 wrote

Egos got in the way.

You're so far off base with this it's not even funny. Care to share whatever you are smoking???

These guys are some of the chillest dudes you could ever want to meet. Sounds like your jealous to me.

campgottagopee

Re: GREEK PEAK MOUNTAIN RESORT AND TOGGENBURG MOUNTAIN

In reply to this post by Adk Jeff

Adk Jeff wrote

About the only "shady and crooked" that I recall was Campy's admiration for businesses who engage in larceny, and I'm pretty sure he was just joking about that anyway.

Of course I was. What I meant is that anyone who runs a biz walks the line at times. I'm certain you knew what I meant anyway.

Now, if we were talking about politicians those effer's are all crooks in my book!

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