Gore skier visits down 44%, WF down 22%

Snowballs wrote

 People just stay home and watch cable tv, play on the web etc.

Or they fly out west. Colorado was up this year.

Benny, Im with you on that.

Believe me thats what drives me to the ORDA mountains, lack of realestate. Im a Belleayre season pass holder largely for that reason. I have been greatly against the resort build out at Belleayre. But even for me in a year like this, having to invest a bit of money a few weeks out not knowing what the weather will bring, Lake Placid provided more bailout options.

But what we like isn't want drives most of Joe and Jane Skiier to pick a mountain on the weekend, which is why I think Gores numbers are way down.

evantful wrote

Lodging/RealEstate.

It is the massive glaring hole in the business model for Gore. Mt Snow and especially Stratton and Okemo have a massive selection in on Mountain or Mountain Run lodging options. For the skier family of the 2000's this is a product they want and Gore can't offer it. Thats not Gore's fault, just its reality.

Like I said, I am not suggesting Gore try to hit 500,000 visits like the 3 in southern VT - just try to get to 250,000. Real estate is not the problem.

evantful wrote

Whiteface fairs better due to its proximity to Lake Placid and all that it provides for off mountain activities/lodging. What does ORDA Market for Gore to NYC area customers who are driving 4-5hours especially in a year where the mountain itself as a product may be lacking due to the weather?  Unless ORDA plans to build a faux ski village like Stratton at Gore, you simply can not compete with what Lake Placid is, along with its history, to downstate skiers.

Gore is 3:10  for me from Bergen County. The population of Orange Cty, Rockland Cty, Bergen Cty , Passaic Cty (all around 3-4 hours to Gore) is 2.1 million. Albany metro population is 1.2 million. There is no logical  reason to ignore the northern sections of the NYC metro area at a minimum. Gore also has 2-3 times the terrain that the vast bulk of skiers want - blue trails vs Whiteface.

evantful wrote

I live in Orange County NY and usually I make a few trips up to the ADK's in the winter and split my time between Gore and Whiteface. This year I did not go to Gore because for an extra 50 minute drive I can go to Whiteface, who did seem to get more natural snow this year, and had better bailout options in the event things turned south on the mountain. Hiking in the high peaks, things to do in LP itself, better lodging options.

You can toss out this year due to the weather. I am talking about Gore's visits staying right around 200K visits in recent history.

evantful wrote

As much as we want to rail on Sno for his snowmaking holy war, this year Gore was crushed because of the product rollout and there is nothing else to sell besides their trails.
Day trippers/Joe and Jane Weekender had a choice and they choose to go to other places with more open terrain and more options in the event the mountain wasn't up to snuff, aka Vermont.

Again, I am not talking about this year's numbers, although they did stink.

Gore could kill it if things were done right. It's a cool mountain with a town and it's the closest big-ish mountain to the tri state area. It's a whole heck of a lot better than Mount Snow imho.

Somebody is dropping the ball.

raisingarizona wrote

Somebody is dropping the ball.

Yeah. The guy in the sky that makes it snow

skimore wrote

raisingarizona wrote

Somebody is dropping the ball.

Yeah. The guy in the sky that makes it snow

To me what makes Gore special is its glades.  On a season with so little natural snow there was little to no glade skiing so it kind of make sense the numbers would drop so much.  

Why the town doesn't do more to capture the business rolling thru it is a mystery to me.  There is very little there.  I know Gore has more day skiers but is that because of its location closer to Albany or because there really is very little lodging base locally?

Coach Z wrote

skimore wrote

raisingarizona wrote

Somebody is dropping the ball.

Yeah. The guy in the sky that makes it snow

To me what makes Gore special is its glades.  On a season with so little natural snow there was little to no glade skiing so it kind of make sense the numbers would drop so much.  

Why the town doesn't do more to capture the business rolling thru it is a mystery to me.  There is very little there.  I know Gore has more day skiers but is that because of its location closer to Albany or because there really is very little lodging base locally?

I hear ya on the glades but you are a good skier, it seems to me and I might be wrong on this, that it's pitch and trail layout should/could attract the market that really likes to ski at the popular southern VT areas. If they could somehow put the whole int. cruiser skiing thing with park skiing, glade skiing, and the town all together they could have a winning equation. I just see a possible product that should be stealing a whole lot of those skier visit numbers from southern Vt. Maybe not a shit ton ruining the Gore experience but enough to keep the place more than sustainable.

Why would those people drive past what you just described for more of the same

Because it's not the same.

Before I started reading NYSkiBlog, I hadn't heard much about Gore.  Certainly had no idea how much terrain there is.  So far, I've only skied at Gore a few days, mostly during early season before any glades were open.  Enjoyed the experience.

The few people in the Mid-Atlantic who talk about driving north for northeast skiing mainly head to VT, even though going straight up the NY Thruway is easier in comparison.  With the way the weather went this winter, I'd say even people who know about Gore figured that it was worth a little more driving for better conditions at Whiteface or in northern VT.  It was certainly easier for me to suggest to a friend in Philly to head up to Whiteface and Lake Placid during early season given that her husband is not that much into skiing.  Spending three days in North Creek or even Lake George was a non-starter.  Lodging for Whiteface isn't that close either, but travelers of all ages enjoy spending time around LP.

Get your dad to invest 20 million in the area and see how that works out for ya

Coach Z wrote

skimore wrote

raisingarizona wrote

Somebody is dropping the ball.

Yeah. The guy in the sky that makes it snow

To me what makes Gore special is its glades.  On a season with so little natural snow there was little to no glade skiing so it kind of make sense the numbers would drop so much.  

Why the town doesn't do more to capture the business rolling thru it is a mystery to me.  There is very little there.  I know Gore has more day skiers but is that because of its location closer to Albany or because there really is very little lodging base locally?

Location. Easy for someone from Saratoga, Clifton Park or Albany to drive to in less than 1.5 hours. When they get off of the mountain, they can either turn left into town, or right to go home. Most people turn right.

What they really need is a nice Gondola that connects downtown North Creek, the Ski Bowl Base, the Burnt Ridge base, and the Main Base Area. Breckenridge had a Gondola like that and it was pretty sweet. Telluride, too. Not sure how much such a Gondola would cost, but if the state was serious about encouraging growth and helping the local communities, they could put up the money to connect town to mountain.

Love Gore ,wasn't there initialy some plans for a gondi from NC to the Snow Bowl when it opened ?

skimore wrote

Why would those people drive past what you just described for more of the same

From north NJ, and Rockland and Orange Counties in NYS, you are not driving by S VT. Gore is actually an easier and shorter (time wise) drive than southern VT. While Gore is about 2/3 the size of the S VT 3, it has 1/2 to1/3 the skier traffic. It is much less crowded, even if you added another 50K visits to Gore.

Gore/North Creek is a much different experience than SVT, less commercial and more rustic. The skiing is also much different. The lodging is cheaper and there is no slope side at the main base ( and 10 years later at the Ski Bowl, a few models). People are constantly bitching about the fake villages and multi-million dollar properties at the base of the 3 in SVT. I see Gore's lack of slope side as a big positive.

ORDA never advertises Gore in the NYC metro area. Sometimes on cable stations I will see a Lake George Regional ad with Gore quickly flashing by the screen. Last year NYS Tourism had a big Ski NYS ad the featured Gore, but it was not an ad for Gore. There are ads for Whiteface/Lake Placid.

What is the logic to keep Gore a secret? NYS has plowed millions into Gore and it continues to be an underutilized asset.

I too hate the slopeside real estate thing at some areas. I don't like skiing through rich neighborhoods, I like being in the forest and the mountains. I agree that it's an attractive aspect. That is why the connecting gondola to town idea makes even more sense. It could bring life and $ to the community. It would create an experience unique to the east coast and it could become the coolest ski town experience out there, something more like Telluride without the Mountain Village.

mattchuck2 wrote

What they really need is a nice Gondola that connects downtown North Creek, the Ski Bowl Base, the Burnt Ridge base, and the Main Base Area. Breckenridge had a Gondola like that and it was pretty sweet. Telluride, too. Not sure how much such a Gondola would cost, but if the state was serious about encouraging growth and helping the local communities, they could put up the money to connect town to mountain.

No idea whether the length and terrain is at all comparable, but the gondola at Sunshine cost $16 million and it's been around for a while.

https://liftblog.com/2015/06/14/lift-profile-sunshine-village-gondola/#more-652

The 3-mile long gondola at Telluride is only free because the $4 million that it takes to keep it running is being paid by property owners of Mountain Village through the Telluride Mountain Village Owners Association.  That's the agreement that goes thru 2027.  It's 20 years old and talk is starting about a major overhaul or rebuild in the not so distant future.

raisingarizona wrote

I too hate the slopeside real estate thing at some areas. I don't like skiing through rich neighborhoods, I like being in the forest and the mountains. I agree that it's an attractive aspect. That is why the connecting gondola to town idea makes even more sense. It could bring life and $ to the community. It would create an experience unique to the east coast and it could become the coolest ski town experience out there, something more like Telluride without the Mountain Village.

Drop it down in front of the Barking Spider, it'll be Yooge. It can run about 10 drunks a day up to the mountain.

Realestate is still a problem in good years if you think Gore still needs more visits. Im content with both Gore and Whiteface's numbers from the last 5 years, which atleast in the last few years have reached parity. Visitor wise I don't really want them to grow beyond what they are now for my own selfish reasons.

But you have for a long time hammered away about Gore being this bastard child of ORDA, when infrastructure investment in the last decade would say otherwise. You also seem to want Gore to continue to increase visitor wise but there is going to be pleateau that is going to be hit without on mountain Realestate and a large increase in snowmaking, both of which would go against what many seem to love about it.

Whether we think thats what the mountains need or not, Vermont is achieving high visitor counts with those things. And whether we like that is a completely separate point If the goal is simply to increase visitors.

Whiteface benefits from its proximity to Lake Placid, it always has and always will. Unless North Creek plans on hosting the Olympics anytime soon, On Mountain almost all-inclusive lodging and dining are going to be necessary evil if you want to see visits grow. North Creek will never be the bustling little Ski Town, thats just the way the market has drifted.


 

evantful wrote

North Creek will never be the bustling little Ski Town, thats just the way the market has drifted.

You sure about that?

mattchuck2 wrote

evantful wrote

North Creek will never be the bustling little Ski Town, thats just the way the market has drifted.

You sure about that?

Unfourtantely the market seems to be pointing that way.

Use Hunter and Windham as an example. Both of their respective villages have seen a nice rebound from the glum that was the 1990s and early 2000s, but even then both mountains pushed forward with On Mountain lodging.

To expect Gore to grow with North Creek handling the lodging goes counter to what has occurred in the last 30 years at virtually every mountain resort in the country, especially those of Gore's size. Do I like that? No, but we aren't talking about what we like.

In that respect Whiteface is an outliner, but Lake Placid has what few mountains in the country have or world have: Olympic history and the growth that came from it.