Gore skier visits down 44%, WF down 22%

evantful wrote

To expect Gore to grow with North Creek handling the lodging goes counter to what has occurred in the last 30 years at virtually every mountain resort in the country, especially those of Gore's size. Do I like that? No, but we aren't talking about what we like.

I don't disagree that on-mountain real estate has fueled growth at many ski resorts.  However, I don't think the on-mountain model is the only way.  I think that with a combination of private investment (Main St, North Creek), state investment (Ski Bowl - Burnt Ridge - Main base gondi, double down on snowmaking firepower) and the right kind of marketing / promotion, Gore and North Creek could be uniquely successful as a "real" (differentiated from "faux") ski destination.  And why shouldn't the state invest in a gondi and snowmaking?  After all, they're investing $23 million in the Old Forge - Lake Placid rail line and rail trail.  That kind of dough would take care of the gondi, snowmaking upgrade, replace the High Peaks chair, major saddle lodge reno and put real restrooms at the summit.  As X said earlier, Gore could easily handle a 25% to 50% increase in skier visits.  Let's do this!

I fully disagree with you eventful. Gore and North Creek has potential and that potential is in the town, not fancy real estate. There is something there that no east coast area has and that is a cool soulful town right near the base of a large east coast ski area. It just needs someone in charge with that vision imo.

marznc wrote

The 3-mile long gondola at Telluride is only free because the $4 million that it takes to keep it running is being paid by property owners of Mountain Village through the Telluride Mountain Village Owners Association.

You sure about that $4 million?  Sounds way high.  That gondi runs what, 16 hours a day?  Takes 6 people to run (2 at the top, 2 at the mid, 2 at the bottom).  6 guys x 16 hours per day x 365 days = 35,040 man hours.  If I pay the guys $16/hr and then load that with another 30% for benefits (I think I'm being generous) that comes out to around $750K a year.  Yes, there's electricity, but not millions of dollars of electricity.  

PeeTex wrote

raisingarizona wrote

I too hate the slopeside real estate thing at some areas. I don't like skiing through rich neighborhoods, I like being in the forest and the mountains. I agree that it's an attractive aspect. That is why the connecting gondola to town idea makes even more sense. It could bring life and $ to the community. It would create an experience unique to the east coast and it could become the coolest ski town experience out there, something more like Telluride without the Mountain Village.

Drop it down in front of the Barking Spider, it'll be Yooge. It can run about 10 drunks a day up to the mountain.

Ya, maybe I'm way off. I have never even been to North Creek or have I skied at Gore so I actually have no idea what I'm talking about but......sometimes these things take vision and maybe, maybe if you build it they will come? I will say this, from where I'm sitting I see some serious potential to put a lot of dollars in the pockets of the local residents in North Creek. Just sayin.

Adk Jeff wrote

marznc wrote

The 3-mile long gondola at Telluride is only free because the $4 million that it takes to keep it running is being paid by property owners of Mountain Village through the Telluride Mountain Village Owners Association.

You sure about that $4 million?  Sounds way high.  That gondi runs what, 16 hours a day?  Takes 6 people to run (2 at the top, 2 at the mid, 2 at the bottom).  6 guys x 16 hours per day x 365 days = 35,040 man hours.  If I pay the guys $16/hr and then load that with another 30% for benefits (I think I'm being generous) that comes out to around $750K a year.  Yes, there's electricity, but not millions of dollars of electricity.

Add a manager to that and housing for those employees and you could easily be at $1M in personnel costs. Now add the electricity and probably a cool mil in maintenance and you could get to 3M, if it gets a little over 3 you call it 4 - so I could see how you get there. But no matter what you call it - it's a Yooge nut.

North Creeks big problem is that there is little to keep people there overnight in the summer. You can bring people in for a concert or two during the summer but that is not enough. They need a good multi-day blues festival, rock festival, maybe some art festivals. They could even do a film festival using the auditorium in the community center.

I think I suggested that the resurrect the old plans to put in a Hydro dam at Rapparius, flood the river all the way up to the Rt 28 bridge and make a lake front resort. Green power and a booming economy. (Just kidding).

the world wide web has allowed skiers to see what the actual snow conditions are. gone are the years where mountains could fluff the trail report. "we have 50 trails open, upper this and lower that", which were basically the same trail. mountains have now switched to  promoting open terrain in the form of acres to try and make conditions sound more impressive then they really are. well this year try as they might there was no hiding the fact that there was no snow. people have a limited budget to spend on entertainment. conditions just did not justify a family of 4 blowing roughly $250 just to ski limited terrain.  other industries benefited from the lack of snow. the owner of my local golf course had his best December ever. just the nature of the business.

No reason you'd have to run the Gondy 16 hours a day. I'd think that 6am-6pm, 12 hours is fine.

And I think the argument that North Creek is 1 summer festival away from greatness is pretty ridiculous. Hunter has Mountain Jam, zip lines, some Country Festival, and a Brewfest, and I never really think about going down there. If you're North Creek, you gotta use what you got: River for rafting & kayaking, mountain for mountain biking, trails for hiking.

Business idea for unscrupulous rich guy: buy up a bunch of buildings in North Creek, lobby State for connecting gondola to North Creek, and once successful, sell buildings at greatly inflated prices.

Generally most of you have pointed out why a North Creek build out won't happen. Their are so many variables that would need to be put in place for it to be successful, so many parties with varying interests, that I doubt it could ever come together just right. In a different time it maybe could have worked and then maintained because of its own history. But that time really has come and gone.

Another issue is North Creek's location, coming from all the population centers in the South you never have to pass through North Creek. For most people thats enough never to visit it. If the Village of Hunter sat just beyond the mountain they would get half the foot traffic they do now.

Like I said Im with you guys on what my ideal reality would be and it would not be the Strattons, Okemos of the world, I ski at Belleayre, Gore and Whiteface for a reason but Im just playing devils advocate.

gore is a day ski area.  the folks that ski there are from the capital district area and get in their car's at days end and head south.  it will never have the resort appeal of LP.

i think gore is perfect just the way it is. I don't want to see it built up to the point where it is packed every weekend.
they don't need to make money because the state will always supplement it's losses. it does not need to compete on a level playing field with other mountains. of all the money the state pisses away this is a drop in the bucket.  

The place needs more snowmaking, more groomed trails, more high speed lifts and they need to cut down more trees to widen trails

evantful wrote

mattchuck2 wrote

evantful wrote

North Creek will never be the bustling little Ski Town, thats just the way the market has drifted.

You sure about that?

Unfourtantely the market seems to be pointing that way.

Use Hunter and Windham as an example. Both of their respective villages have seen a nice rebound from the glum that was the 1990s and early 2000s, but even then both mountains pushed forward with On Mountain lodging.

To expect Gore to grow with North Creek handling the lodging goes counter to what has occurred in the last 30 years at virtually every mountain resort in the country, especially those of Gore's size. Do I like that? No, but we aren't talking about what we like.

In that respect Whiteface is an outliner, but Lake Placid has what few mountains in the country have or world have: Olympic history and the growth that came from it.

Yeah, seems like Northeast ski area growth has pretty much come to a halt, and might be slowly reversing. Of course, winters like we just had isn't helping.
I mean, look at Killington, which, I'm pretty sure, most would agree is the busiest ski hill in Vermont. Well established history and culture spanning generations now. Most of the infrastructure, both on mountain and, especially, off, is old and fading, and I see no new plans for new building. No new condos, and the restaraunts and retail buildings are still stuck in the eighties and ninties. So, I guess what I'm saying is, whatever is there is there in the notheast, and that will be milked to service an increasingly shrinking customer base. To talk about Gore going all Breck with a town gondola is pure fantasy. At least the town of Breck has something to offer. North Creek? Hey, if it hasn't become a resort town by now, no expenditure of your tax dollars is going to make it so. Sorry. Besides, aren't there major restrictions on that sort of thing within the park?

As far as lodging at a base area and a cool town to anchor the scene not mattering one way or another for most is just wrong. Most people who ski don't really ski. Well, at least, as seriously as the members of ski forums like this. I'm pretty much convinced of that. To them, skiing is an entertainment, a weekend party, an excuse to drink and hang with family and friends outside in the winter. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but, you have to accept them as the people who fund, well, town gondolas and stuff like that. Without them, think rope tows and pomas instead. What they want is a bed close to the hill, and a scene with a lot of bars and places to eat. Skiing is almost secondary. I'm sure many here have experienced a typical weekend at your favorite hill. Most arrive around 10am on Saturday, spend about half a day skiing, and then drink and party until bedtime -some start that drinking at 10am on the hill. Notice how Sunday is sometimes half as crowded as Saturday, especially in Vermont, because of hangovers and an urgency to get that five hour drive home started early. This also is the same scenario on Colorado mountains close to Denver. So, in effect, most skiers ski on the worst day of the week to ski, which is Saturday. And, some, trust me, don't ski at all. There are members of ski houses at both Killington and Hunter I have met who basically drink all weekend. And, they had equipment and passes. That's what the people want, and Vail corp. is quite good at fulfilling that market need out west. Can't really think of an eastern company that is doing it well right now, but, again, Killington is working with established infrastructure from the eighties to attract skiers and party people.

Be happy that NY has a state government that supports ski hills with tax dollars, but don't expect North Creek to turn into a bustling ski town anytime soon. The people have spoken, and they like the KMart access road over Gore trees. So, enjoy it while you can, because, down the line, NY could have a governor who could care less about winter sports and cut funding. Then you'll really have a ghost town.

mattchuck2 wrote

Business idea for unscrupulous rich guy: buy up a bunch of buildings in North Creek, lobby State for connecting gondola to North Creek, and once successful, sell buildings at greatly inflated prices.

that was pushed for back in 2004-2006 but something about DOT and crossing Rt28 being against some law or too much insurance or something....  Ski Bowl Village permit never got built.  that was approved in that time period.  state came through.  approved project, built ski infrastructure, state amended the permit at developers request almost a dozen time and still no project....  

that plan if fully implemented would of been yooge for North Crick!  YOOGE I tell ya!!!  Someone should buy the permit and build some realistically priced vacation homes to kick start that project....  750K is too expensive even if they are THE BEST - just YOOGE!

sig wrote

i think gore is perfect just the way it is. I don't want to see it built up to the point where it is packed every weekend.
they don't need to make money because the state will always supplement it's losses. it does not need to compete on a level playing field with other mountains. of all the money the state pisses away this is a drop in the bucket.

Agreed. If you want an experience like Stratton or KMart, just go to Stratton or KMart.

Spongeworthy wrote

sig wrote

i think gore is perfect just the way it is. I don't want to see it built up to the point where it is packed every weekend.
they don't need to make money because the state will always supplement it's losses. it does not need to compete on a level playing field with other mountains. of all the money the state pisses away this is a drop in the bucket.

Agreed. If you want an experience like Stratton or KMart, just go to Stratton or KMart.

You are missing the point. There is a big difference between Okemo drawing 600,000 visits and Gore going from 200,000 to 250,000 visits. An additional 50K visits would not ruin Gore. It would not be "packed" every weekend. You might not even notice the difference.

Saying Gore doesn't need to make money and increase visits because of NYS funding is not realistic. The reason for the millions NYS spent in the last 15 years was to boost tourism in the North Creek area. The people who live in the Park need some options on how to earn money. Gore is the regional draw and it needs to be advertised in new areas.

Gore first cracked 200k in 2003. Since 2002, they have added 3 new pods (Top Ridge, Burnt Ridge, Ski Bowl), one with access to Rt 28, added snowmaking and increased its efficiency, refurbished the old gondola base building, updated the ADK Express, added lots of new glades, and did a load of trail maintenance. They are still drawing in the 200K range. "Filed of Dreams" was a movie, not an advertising strategy.

Maybe if Gore where to draw another 50K visits Burnt Ridge and the Ski Bowl would be opened sooner than mid January. Maybe there would be some restrooms at the top of the mountain. Maybe there would be more snowmaking power to cover more trails sooner. Maybe they would be able to replace lifts and equipment when it wears out, not when the NYS money shows up.

I wonder what the majority of people in North Creek think?

raisingarizona wrote

I wonder what the majority of people in North Creek think?

There are about a dozen people in NC and they're all broke, which is why they aren't lining up to foot the bill on.... anything.

raisingarizona wrote

I wonder what the majority of people in North Creek think?

they are thinking about the next time genny is on sale at the grand union

In addition to X's observations above, the whole point of the concept of connecting the Ski Bowl, Burnt Ridge and Main Base area with a gondi is to anchor the ski area to the town.  That is a completely different experience from Stratton and KMart.