Gore skier visits down 44%, WF down 22%

ml242 wrote

x10003q wrote

It is not cheaper to ski Gore vs Stratton/Mt Snow/Okemo.

Gore day ticket holiday: $83
Okemo day ticket holiday: $99

And so on.

Gore Adult non holiday season pass $599
Stratton Adult non holiday season pass $499

and so on.

x10003q wrote

ml242 wrote

x10003q wrote

It is not cheaper to ski Gore vs Stratton/Mt Snow/Okemo.

Gore day ticket holiday: $83
Okemo day ticket holiday: $99

And so on.

Gore Adult non holiday season pass $599
Stratton Adult non holiday season pass $499

and so on.

 Stratton lodging at SirEdwardsHosesUAlot @$999 a night
Gore lodging at BringUrOwnSleepingBag @ $99 a night

mattchuck2 wrote

Adk Jeff wrote

In addition to X's observations above, the whole point of the concept of connecting the Ski Bowl, Burnt Ridge and Main Base area with a gondi is to anchor the ski area to the town.  That is a completely different experience from Stratton and KMart.

Yep.

Also, there's a lot of money in Stratton and Killington (and Stowe - Benny, if you think eastern ski towns are dated, go check out Stowe this year. Lots of shiny new construction). Nothing wrong with trying to attract a monied clientele with a unique-to-the-east experience.

The real problem here is Snow. Stratton averages 30" more a year than Gore. Even lowly Mount Snow averages 6" more. And those places don't rely on glade skiing for their upper level terrain (i.e. they actually let bump runs bump up). It's hard to be a ski town if your ski area is so reliant on man made snow. Snoloco can talk snowmaking all he wants, but an area without natural snow is an area I'm not as interested in, and I'm assuming downstaters are thinking the same thing, especially when it comes to planning a family vacation.

Meaning: if we get another couple of years like last year, I'm moving out west.

Take it from someone that has dipped his toes deep in the water, avoid most any town that has a gondola connecting the town to the slopes. Really expensive, and way too crowded.

Agreed about the snow. I may buy a midweek Killington pass this year just because that's the best bet for snow quality, up high.

mattchuck2 wrote

evantful wrote

North Creek will never be the bustling little Ski Town, thats just the way the market has drifted.

You sure about that?

From an alternate timeline:

Another January weekend, looking forward to another great weekend at Gore!!  This is our first year in the 3-bedroom condo off Main Street in North Creek.  I really have to hand it to the developer -- instead of designer kitchens, he focused on room, rustic comfort (think knotty pine) and convenience.  I opted not to convert the garage to a bunk room, but when the kids get bigger, I might do that so we can bring more family and friends.  

We've already made friends with a couple of other families at the Saturday-night "s'mores and hot chocolate" at the fire pit outside the gym/pool community center.  There's 60 apartments in this development, and I hear there is another 90-unit development going up on the other side of the gondola.  A shame about those houses on Wade Street -- but I guess the homeowners got market price for their properties.  Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, we can walk to the gondola that will take us to any of the base sites.  

Being on Main Street also lets us walk to the restaurants and bars -- there seems to be a new business opening up every month.  Folks are renovating some of the more dilapidated buildings.  Last week the wife and I walked over to the Tannery Pond Community Center for a talk on Gore's history and development (followed by light snacks and refreshments).  Then we went and had dinner at the new Tex-BBQ restaurant -- great beer list!

Next weekend we're having friends up from Manhattan -- the geniuses at the Snow Train finally figured out how to coordinate with Amtrak to offer a service to folks that get them from Penn Station to North Creek in time to actually ski.

I'm sure this is going to spark more investment in the area -- a few more condo developments that will offer their own shuttle service to the base lodge, as well as downtown.  Some affordable housing developments for local workers.  We might even see a small hotel built.

The greatest thing about all this is that the mountain is still the same -- it's still the same great feeling of skiing through real woods, not a housing development.  Sure, the traffic is a little worse on 28 on Friday night and Sunday afternoon -- but is still beats driving the back roads just to fight the crowds at Stratton.

Petronio

Petronio wrote

mattchuck2 wrote

evantful wrote

North Creek will never be the bustling little Ski Town, thats just the way the market has drifted.

You sure about that?

From an alternate timeline:

Another January weekend, looking forward to another great weekend at Gore!!  This is our first year in the 3-bedroom condo off Main Street in North Creek.  I really have to hand it to the developer -- instead of designer kitchens, he focused on room, rustic comfort (think knotty pine) and convenience.  I opted not to convert the garage to a bunk room, but when the kids get bigger, I might do that so we can bring more family and friends.  

We've already made friends with a couple of other families at the Saturday-night "s'mores and hot chocolate" at the fire pit outside the gym/pool community center.  There's 60 apartments in this development, and I hear there is another 90-unit development going up on the other side of the gondola.  A shame about those houses on Wade Street -- but I guess the homeowners got market price for their properties.  Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, we can walk to the gondola that will take us to any of the base sites.  

Being on Main Street also lets us walk to the restaurants and bars -- there seems to be a new business opening up every month.  Folks are renovating some of the more dilapidated buildings.  Last week the wife and I walked over to the Tannery Pond Community Center for a talk on Gore's history and development (followed by light snacks and refreshments).  Then we went and had dinner at the new Tex-BBQ restaurant -- great beer list!

Next weekend we're having friends up from Manhattan -- the geniuses at the Snow Train finally figured out how to coordinate with Amtrak to offer a service to folks that get them from Penn Station to North Creek in time to actually ski.

I'm sure this is going to spark more investment in the area -- a few more condo developments that will offer their own shuttle service to the base lodge, as well as downtown.  Some affordable housing developments for local workers.  We might even see a small hotel built.

The greatest thing about all this is that the mountain is still the same -- it's still the same great feeling of skiing through real woods, not a housing development.  Sure, the traffic is a little worse on 28 on Friday night and Sunday afternoon -- but is still beats driving the back roads just to fight the crowds at Stratton.

Petronio

Totally lost me at the snow train. Like that's ever going to happen. I'd bet a thousand bucks on a town gondola before that one.
Didn't they just try that from Saratoga and it turned into another fail recently? Hey, people drive, especially skiers. You try logging all of your ski stuff onto a train and off a few times. Bye bye public transit. We have modern roads these days, and everybody drives an awd.

Like a few have said above, when I exit the access road, I turn right, not left.

Benny Profane wrote

Like a few have said above, when I exit the access road, I turn right, not left.

Don't that putcha over in Sodom?

That Gondi from the Tops parking lot woulda been sweet!

x10003q wrote

Gore Adult non holiday season pass $599
Stratton Adult non holiday season pass $499

and so on.

I always thought that comparing day tickets was the fair way to do this but since you like passes:

Stratton non blackout early: $999
Gore non blackout early:      $759

The "problem" with Gore is not the price.

I love the idea of a lift from downtown.  But I don't see how it works.

If you go to the ski bowl it's probably doable logistically, but then it only runs when your last priority terrain is opened. It requires lots blowing on the connectors too.

If you go to the ski bowl and then add in a second lift ("the original lift 14") which went horizontally from the bowl to BR to the Gore base, you've now got two new lifts with no additional terrain and a long time to get to the summit, or even any skiable terrain in the early season.

If you go to the bottom of BR you've got a pretty expensive lift. It's still a long way/time to get to the summit and you've got another lift that isn't usable early season.

If you go to the Gore base, that is one hell of a lift and you aren't really adding access to your new BR and SB terrain.

Tram to the top of Bear? Don't even get me started.

Probably more realistic to buy a bunch of plush shuttles to run really frequently.

Harvey wrote

I love the idea of a lift from downtown.  But I don't see how it works.

You run the gondi from the Ski Bowl base to BR to the main base area.  Passengers ride in either direction and can get on or off at any of the 3 points.

For skiers basing out of the Ski Bowl, you'd be able to ski a few laps there, do a quick ride up to BR, do a few laps there, then move on to the rest of the mountain (either via the new gondi or by skiing Echo or Hedges). End your day wherever you want and it's an easy gondi ride back down to the Ski Bowl base.  Pipeline and Cedars become unnecessary.

For skiers based at the main lodge, it's way easier and vastly more appealing to most skiers to hop the gondi to get over to BR and the Ski Bowl. Easy over, easy back.  And for most skiers, a gondi ride is "fun."  Maybe not us 1%ers, but most skiers.

The gondi makes it way more appealing (again, to most skiers) to base out of the Ski Bowl than the current configuration.  All that underutilized terrain soaks up the additional 50K visitors with probably zero impact in terms of the mountain feeling "crowded."  And because we've doubled snowmaking capacity, Ski Bowl and BR get blown way earlier than they do right now.  46er gets blown early and becomes the first black diamond to come on line (strike that, Sag first).  And we have that spring 46er mogul comp.  You need to convert Barkeater or Abenaki to a trail and pipe it, but other than that you don't need any new trails.

Adk Jeff wrote

marznc wrote

The 3-mile long gondola at Telluride is only free because the $4 million that it takes to keep it running is being paid by property owners of Mountain Village through the Telluride Mountain Village Owners Association.

You sure about that $4 million?  Sounds way high.  That gondi runs what, 16 hours a day?  Takes 6 people to run (2 at the top, 2 at the mid, 2 at the bottom).  6 guys x 16 hours per day x 365 days = 35,040 man hours.  If I pay the guys $16/hr and then load that with another 30% for benefits (I think I'm being generous) that comes out to around $750K a year.  Yes, there's electricity, but not millions of dollars of electricity.

I got the numbers from an article from 2011 in a Telluride local paper.

http://www.telluridenews.com/news/article_b8ec1825-c8bd-57ea-9a95-10330e9a5803.html

"The 3-mile long gondola system costs roughly $3 million annually to operate, and an additional $1 million for maintenance and employees."

Adk Jeff wrote

You run the gondi from the Ski Bowl base to BR to the main base area.  Passengers ride in either direction and can get on or off at any of the 3 points.

Well that is the way it was drawn up.  What I called "the original lift 14."  That was the drawing that made Snowballs head explode on Skiadk as I recall.  To really connect town you'd need another lift too. Without it, parking at the Ski Bowl would be an issue.

ml242 wrote

x10003q wrote

Gore Adult non holiday season pass $599
Stratton Adult non holiday season pass $499

and so on.

I always thought that comparing day tickets was the fair way to do this but since you like passes:

Stratton non blackout early: $999
Gore non blackout early:      $759

The "problem" with Gore is not the price.

As of today - full season passes:
Gore/WF/Belleayre Ski 3                      $799, before April 29 - $759
Mt Snow/Hunter + 5 others/Peak Pass   $799, before April 30 - $599

Like I said before - Gore is playing in the same price range as SVT. I never said that Gore's pricing was a problem, just that it is not always cheaper than SVT and sometimes Gore is more expensive. Comparing rack day ticket prices just seems useless when online purchases allow you to ski for much cheaper rates. I was able to ski both Gore and Stratton last season on weekends for $63/day by purchasing tickets online. I did not use frequent skier cards, either. The pricing used to be a big advantage for Gore vs SVT, but this is just not true anymore.

Harvey wrote

 That was the drawing that made Snowballs head explode on Skiadk as I recall.

That's because it's a very stupid idea.  

As I recall, Harvey, et al were all sooooooo very sure the ski bowl would revitalize NC. It's still a ghost town. The ski bowl do absolutely zilch for it. The oft repeated, uh.... "wisdom" was,,,,," Hey !!! People will ski to the bowl and then go to town to spend money ! " never pausing to think that nobody would take time out of their ski day to go to NC especially via the bowl, you have to unboot,, walk? hitchhike? ,,, you'd lose hours of skiing !! Oi Vey ! So then they got the shuttle. Still nothing.

News Flash: People will/do/ and shall stay on the mtn until they're done skiing.

Harv, I'm still holding that case of champagne I promised to give you when you and your hordes of Unicorns come skiing into NC via the bowl.

Hate to say it but " I told ya so .... "

For my own selfish reasons I'm not really a fan of the transfer lift.

I disagree with your characterization of North Creek as a ghost town.  And I personally love the Ski Bowl and I also like Burnt Ridge.

Snoloco is right about one thing, if you want bigger crowds it make more sense to spend all that money on snowmaking vs terrain.  That wasn't what NY state was offering, and what we got was something that was expensive, didn't drive as many visits as more manmade snow. It is also fun as hell, for me.

I guess if they really want to connect town you go with the lift from town to the bowl and spend the $XX million for the transfer lift on snowmaking, and let the peeps continue to whine above traversing between pods.

Harvey wrote

 Snoloco is right about one thing, if you want bigger crowds it make more sense to spend all that money on snowmaking vs terrain.  

Ah so ! Ah so you've been schooled by Sno and myself most honorable number 1.

You're welcome.

marznc wrote

I got the numbers from an article from 2011 in a Telluride local paper.

http://www.telluridenews.com/news/article_b8ec1825-c8bd-57ea-9a95-10330e9a5803.html

"The 3-mile long gondola system costs roughly $3 million annually to operate, and an additional $1 million for maintenance and employees."

I'm still puzzled by that $4 million.  The $1 million for maint and employees I get, but the other $3 million is what, electricity?  It doesn't pass the sniff test.  ORDA spent $5.3 million for the fiscal year 14-15 in total utilities and fuel across all their venues.  That's snowmaking, lifts (including 2 gondis that each run around 180 days), grooming, heat & lights, etc. for 3 ski areas, an ice rink, convention center, etc.  So how can Telluride spend $3 million on just one gondi?  Either the news reporter or the accountants have been partaking of too much of that Colorodo weed.

Adk Jeff wrote

marznc wrote

I got the numbers from an article from 2011 in a Telluride local paper.

http://www.telluridenews.com/news/article_b8ec1825-c8bd-57ea-9a95-10330e9a5803.html

"The 3-mile long gondola system costs roughly $3 million annually to operate, and an additional $1 million for maintenance and employees."

I'm still puzzled by that $4 million.  The $1 million for maint and employees I get, but the other $3 million is what, electricity?  It doesn't pass the sniff test.  ORDA spent $5.3 million for the fiscal year 14-15 in total utilities and fuel across all their venues.  That's snowmaking, lifts (including 2 gondis that each run around 180 days), grooming, heat & lights, etc. for 3 ski areas, an ice rink, convention center, etc.  So how can Telluride spend $3 million on just one gondi?  Either the news reporter or the accountants have been partaking of too much of that Colorodo weed.

I agree. There is something wrong or transposed in the article.

I agree with Snowballs that the Ski Bowl has done little to improve the economy of Main Street, North Creek.  Don't get me wrong, I like the Ski Bowl and Burnt Ridge as much as Harv (well maybe not quite that much), but nobody's going to argue that the new terrain has been the spark that transformed downtown North Creek.  The reason is obvious:  nobody goes to the Ski Bowl.  And the reason for that is obvious: it's a pain in the ass to get to/from on skis and it's low man on the snowmaking totem pole, so it's closed more than it's open.

Could a Ski Bowl - BR - Main base gondi be the spark that transforms downtown North Creek?  Maybe.  If you back up the gondi with enough snowmaking firepower that the Ski Bowl terrain is open for most of the season, and you establish a medium sized lodge and parking for 500 (?) cars there, you could shift the whole center of gravity towards North Creek.  Maybe you get 30% of Gore's skiers basing out of the Ski Bowl.  Maybe more, eventually.  That doesn't mean those skiers will all go into town, but it makes it a lot more likely.  It also makes it more likely for a bed base and other tourist facilities to develop on Main Street because the skiing is much closer.  No, it's not slopeside, but it's right across the street.

I've seen decades worth of proposals for North Creek, each of which was going to be transformational.  The Ski Bowl was proposed for re-development first about 30 years ago.  I think it was Eliot Monter.  Then you had Eliot's other projects - the Copperfield and Mountain and Boardertown.  You had the Summit and the other condo projects.  Barton Mines was going to develop condos with a lift and trails on their adjacent property. More recently you've got the Ski Bowl and the Ski Train.  Each of those projects and proposals was accompanied by predictions that North Creek was about to be "re-awakened."  For the most part, the North Creek economy today is about what it was 30 years ago:  a sleepy Main Street, bypassed by tourists on Route 28.  So yeah, I'm skeptical too that a new gondi would be "transformational," but maybe it's worth a try.  We (New York) have spent $20 million on far dumber ideas.  Plus we've got this spread out ski area that needs to be better connected and needs more snowmaking anyway...

I posted this in a different thread before but if I were part of the planning and there was enough money to make it happen I would try for something like this. Move the access road to connect with the Ski Bowl. Create and have all of your ski school out of the Bowl and all of the park skiing and tubing as well. Maybe put lights on it. The connective gondola could still be used even if the gondola/Bowl couldn't produce the snow for whatever reason as well as that base area as long as BR had snow.