High Peaks replacement?

I assume they're expecting Federal bailout money for states & infrastructure (as they should).

Even though NY has been the hardest hit by the virus, our economy keeps chugging along. Imagine how Nevada is doing right now - an economy based on conventions, gambling & occupancy taxes is in more trouble than us for sure (showing what a boneheaded move Cuomo's casino push was).

I think the only way this is happening is due to the fact that the money was most likely paid out to Leitner Poma when the lifts were ordered last year with the ORDA cash from the state.

Darkside Shaman wrote

I think the only way this is happening is due to the fact that the money was most likely paid out to Leitner Poma when the lifts were ordered last year with the ORDA cash from the state.

If that's true, it would be kinda dumb to not install them.

I don't think a "Sorry, we can afford millions of dollars for the lifts, but we don't want to pay workers to put them up during an economic crisis" message would fly.

ORDA update

https://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/news/local-news/2020/05/orda-puts-olympic-center-tunnel-on-hold/

campgottagopee wrote

Just seems like a bad move on the part of NYS imo.

 
Nope. It's exactly the right thing to do.

ORDA is a government agency, not a business. When the economy is in free fall because businesses stop spending, government has to step up and spend money. Even better if the spending builds useful stuff, like roads or reliable chairlifts.  

One of the things I learned as an engineer was that it's easiest to build things when the economy is poor. Interest rates are low and contractors meet deadlines and cut prices. If the HP replacement was moved up from 2021 (I think it was), it's because of the cancellation of every other lift project in the world left Leitner/Poma scrambling for projects. ORDA can dictate terms now, but if they wait for a good economy to replace those lifts, they'll be competing with Vail and Alterra and everyone else.  

Back in 2008, the PSC required all the electric and gas companies to adopt "austerity", which meant deferring construction projects. Apparently the PSC wanted the utilities to share the pain of recession, but the only ones who felt pain were unemployed construction workers. It didn't reduce utility rates in the short run (NY utilities have guaranteed revenue) and it probably increased consumer costs in the long run. Worse, it contributed to the vicious cycle of layoffs leading to lost sales leading to more layoffs.

And before anyone says there's no money for that, the entire modern electric system and the obsolete phone system were built out mostly during the Great Depression. And the Great Depression wasn't over until WW2 started, which was the most costly and wasteful government program ever.

mm

Darkside Shaman wrote

I think the only way this is happening is due to the fact that the money was most likely paid out to Leitner Poma when the lifts were ordered last year with the ORDA cash from the state.

There's no way ORDA prepaid for those lifts. Maybe the contracts have cancellation penalties, but if they advanced the schedule for the HP replacement, ORDA probably got a sweet deal on that.

mm

Milo Maltbie wrote

Darkside Shaman wrote

I think the only way this is happening is due to the fact that the money was most likely paid out to Leitner Poma when the lifts were ordered last year with the ORDA cash from the state.

There's no way ORDA prepaid for those lifts. Maybe the contracts have cancellation penalties, but if they advanced the schedule for the HP replacement, ORDA probably got a sweet deal on that.

mm

Custom machinery in the ski lift price range is almost always sold on progress payment terms such as 20% down, 20% after approval drawings, 50% at shipment, and 10% at start-up. ORDA likely had up to 40% already in the projects and would have had to pay a penalty clause if they cancelled.

I'd rather see NYS give the money to towns that are canceling youth programs due to the pandemic.

Milo Maltbie wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Just seems like a bad move on the part of NYS imo.

 
Nope. It's exactly the right thing to do.

ORDA is a government agency, not a business. When the economy is in free fall because businesses stop spending, government has to step up and spend money. Even better if the spending builds useful stuff, like roads or reliable chairlifts.  

One of the things I learned as an engineer was that it's easiest to build things when the economy is poor. Interest rates are low and contractors meet deadlines and cut prices. If the HP replacement was moved up from 2021 (I think it was), it's because of the cancellation of every other lift project in the world left Leitner/Poma scrambling for projects. ORDA can dictate terms now, but if they wait for a good economy to replace those lifts, they'll be competing with Vail and Alterra and everyone else.  

Back in 2008, the PSC required all the electric and gas companies to adopt "austerity", which meant deferring construction projects. Apparently the PSC wanted the utilities to share the pain of recession, but the only ones who felt pain were unemployed construction workers. It didn't reduce utility rates in the short run (NY utilities have guaranteed revenue) and it probably increased consumer costs in the long run. Worse, it contributed to the vicious cycle of layoffs leading to lost sales leading to more layoffs.

And before anyone says there's no money for that, the entire modern electric system and the obsolete phone system were built out mostly during the Great Depression. And the Great Depression wasn't over until WW2 started, which was the most costly and wasteful government program ever.

mm

Makes sense 👍

Just seems like poor priorities to me. That's all.

A lot large equipment orders are pre-paid to some degree, a third deposit to get engineering going, a third prior to delivery, then balance upon completion etc. I'm not sure how the lift industry works but guess they would have similar terms. No way are they going to be strung out for all of those costs for months/years until delivery or completion...

erp...just saw trackbikers post, yup

camp, why would they give the money to towns for cancelled summer programs?

gorgonzola wrote

camp, why would they give the money to towns for cancelled summer programs?

Yeah, I'm interested in this answer, too

campgottagopee wrote

Just seems like poor priorities to me. That's all.

ORDA can only do what it does. It can't bail out towns or fix roads and bridges. If ORDA leads the way of wasteful government spending to get the economy started again, I'm OK with that. OTOH if the gondola can't run next year, High Peaks replacement is a pretty high priority for Gore skiers.

mm

Milo Maltbie wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Just seems like poor priorities to me. That's all.

ORDA can only do what it does. It can't bail out towns or fix roads and bridges. If ORDA leads the way of wasteful government spending to get the economy started again, I'm OK with that. OTOH if the gondola can't run next year, High Peaks replacement is a pretty high priority for ORDA.

mm

FIFY.

Harvey wrote

Milo Maltbie wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Just seems like poor priorities to me. That's all.

ORDA can only do what it does. It can't bail out towns or fix roads and bridges. If ORDA leads the way of wasteful government spending to get the economy started again, I'm OK with that. OTOH if the gondola can't run next year, High Peaks replacement is a pretty high priority for ORDA.

mm

FIFY.

Really? Would you be comfortable buying a Gore pass if that old double was the only way to the top?

mm

gorgonzola wrote

camp, why would they give the money to towns for cancelled summer programs?

They had to cancel summer programs due to the lack of revenue from the NY Pause. Some towns don't have enough cash for lifeguards, etc.

What the hell are these little shitheads gonna do?

I'm confused.

campgottagopee wrote

What the hell are these little shitheads gonna do?

They could come to your office and put their fingerprints on everything?

Part of this next stimulus bill is going to infrastructure so NY could use some of that funding for these chairs
I hope the Bears Den chair also happens at WF

These are shovel ready projects

Harvey wrote

Milo Maltbie wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Just seems like poor priorities to me. That's all.

ORDA can only do what it does. It can't bail out towns or fix roads and bridges. If ORDA leads the way of wasteful government spending to get the economy started again, I'm OK with that. OTOH if the gondola can't run next year, High Peaks replacement is a pretty high priority for all skiers except the curmudgeon known as Harvey .

mm

FIFY.

FIFY