Idea To Keep Whiteface Open Later in the Spring

Coach Z wrote

I doubt if anyone really did a  real break even analysis that the tourist rides as a sole excuse to run the Gondi over chairs is ever going to make business sense.  That said Orda is not a typical business.

I think in a way this is what Pants was saying.  It's not a pure dollars and cents decision.

In the end all of ORDA has to be looked at bigger picture.

I know that but was having fun talking engineering with the kid.  I'm a motor guy.

Oh great, another snoloco thread.


You have no idea what you're talking about. Please stop pretending you do.

-The internet

Just from the start. Piling a huge base of snow isn't free, the customer base dips off MASSIVELY once spring comes. When there isn't snow in peoples backyards they start thinking about gold and getting the boat in the water. Skiing doesn't exist to them once the temps rise up and the yard is green.

"This would allow Whiteface to be competitive in the late season market and would keep us all skiing longer in NY."

Because there is such a lucrative late season market. Do you realize that many mountains close while they still have a good base and could stay open because financially it no longer makes sense for them to stay open.

Of course there are always the die hards that will hike mountains until every patch of snow is gone, but that doesn't make up the general public.  Late season you could have a great base left on a few trails, but have almost nothing but season passholders at your mountain and very few people actually buying lift tickets.

I'm not even trying to be mean. It's great to have ideas, that spirit is vital to keeping the industry going.  I'm just saying that you need to think things through before you post as if you're an expert on everything.

Coach Z wrote

Totally agree Gondi is more efficient.  Let's says it's 35% better which is a huge difference.  The length of the Gondi is around 35% longer netting out the difference.  It's the load of the Gondi cars weight make the Gondi much more expensive to run.  It's simple physics from that point with every lbs in weight costing more energy to move.

While I don't claim to fully understand the attach and detach mechanisms they by nature must also consume considerable energy that is very inefficient as high gear ratios are inherently inefficient .

whitefaces Gondi is particularly inefficient as it has the rise and fall middle section increasing the friction on the cable and making it more even more costly to run again than a more normal straight line lift

I'd like to ski with you some time.  You write well and understand technical concepts very well.  Are you planning to study engineering? We could have some interesting chair rides discussions.

This is a video of how the detach mechanism works.  This lift has the same grips that WF's gondola has.


Whiteface's gondola has the rise and fall in the middle because they wanted the lift lower down to avoid windholds and make it easier to evacuate.  It is actually cheaper to have it gap the entire valley as there is less cable needed and fewer towers.  Many gondolas of the same type have this arrangement.  BTW I changed the topic because I was far off topic with the original thread.

I_BUILD_PARKS wrote

I'm just saying that you need to think things through before you post as if you're an expert on everything.

Hey Dude, why should this kid be any different that 99% of the people who post here.

Coach Z wrote

It's the load of the Gondi cars weight make the Gondi much more expensive to run.  It's simple physics from that point with every lbs in weight costing more energy to move.

I'd like to ski with you some time.  You write well and understand technical concepts very well.  Are you planning to study engineering? We could have some interesting chair rides discussions.

I know that but was having fun talking engineering with the kid.  I'm a motor guy.

You must have left a lot of your engineering (if you ever had any) on the bar stool, the weight of the cars goes up, but they also go down. The added weight adds friction to the sheaves and the larger size adds windage, but that's it. The kid has a broader knowledge of lift mechanics and physics than most people who work in the industry. I find it impressive that he has done as much homework as he has. I would not be surprised if he starts discussing high speed DC drives from a weight to HP perspective.

You don't need to build a glacier to make the season longer, the problem is the long flat runout at the bottom thrid of the mountain. If they really wanted (and had money to burn), they would run the Facelift to access the summit quad where the skiing could continue for a few more weeks really wanted too. Not sure of the download capacity of the Facelift?

Little WF would pose a problem, much snow would be needed to make Little Whiteface skiable top-to-bottom unless you only allow skiing on Mountain Run, etc and forgot the top only to connect with the gondy.

The gondy makes only sense for walking tourist.

The main problem, is to be efficient, you need only one lift running for Spring skiing.

Jay has the Jet
Kmart has the Superstar quad (used to be the K peak double with a midstation).
Bush doesn't concentrate on Mt Ellen due to the 2 lifts needed even if Spring skiing a top of Mt Ellen was way superior that the current setup.
MSS - 1 lift
Wildcat - 1 lift
Sugarloaf - can do 1 lift
Ste. Anne is on a fixed date, but they required the gondy to access the Northside (however they are still skiibg both side of the mountain this weekend - closing Sunday).

Not correct.  The Gondi is not a tram where the load is counter balanced.  Lowering the Gondi cars still takes energy.  And there is the matter of friction as you noted.

MadPatSki wrote

Not sure of the download capacity of the Facelift?

It should be between 25% and 50%.  The gondola has 100% capacity in both directions.

Coach Z wrote

Not correct.  The Gondi is not a tram where the load is counter balanced.  Lowering the Gondi cars still takes energy.  And there is the matter of friction as you noted.

Rotating the cars takes energy, lowering the cars releases energy that has to go somewhere.
It's still one continuous cable.

You must be in sales.

So you don't think that all that down force from the weight of Gondi cars does not add to the energy required to rotate the cable?

The Gondi cars going down hill release far less energy than you are inferring because the losses from that down force plus other friction and windage as you mentioned.  Going back to my original comment the weight of the Gondi cars is far more than what an equal number of passenger capacity would for in chairs thus it takes more energy to move them.  Its simple physics.

Coach Z wrote

So you don't think that all that down force from the weight of Gondi cars does not add to the energy required to rotate the cable?

The Gondi cars going down hill release far less energy than you are inferring because the losses from that down force plus other friction and windage as you mentioned.  Going back to my original comment the weight of the Gondi cars is far more than what an equal number of passenger capacity would for in chairs thus it takes more energy to move them.  Its simple physics.

Indeed it is simple physics and if you weren't releasing the kenetic energy of the cars, you would just be paying for sending them up hill plus all the losses in the system minus the down hill windage and friction which you would have whether or not it was a fixed grip tram or detachable gondi. Certainly moving all those asses up the hill takes added energy no matter whether it is fixed or detachable, but that is not the debate.

Just a little fun with numbers as I thought it was interesting, just to raise 200 lbs up the approximately 750m rise in 10 minutes takes about a kw or you need about 1.3HP/person not including all the inefficiencies in the system. Doing this calculation will give you some idea of the amount of power you need to generate continuously if you were to do the WF uphill bike race, which I have and it hurts.

Yes it's pretty amazing to think how much energy it really takes to move that load up a big hill

I think we are pretty much talking the same thing.  Downforce is a component of friction.

The weight of those cars is what makes the Gondi pretty expensive to run.  I assume they are at least partially ALU compared to steel in the double chairs.  4 chairs I'm guessing weight a big fraction less than one Gondi car.

I think you are all missing one huge factor in the decision to run the Gondi rather than the lifts.... liability.

It's far more difficult to fall out of the Gondi.... and far easier to load and unload it.... making for less injuries... less lawsuits.. lower insurance rates... etc.

Just a thought.

I'm pretty sure this is not a decision factor.  If they are not concerned about terrain park liability I doubt the Gondi vs chair is on the radar.

I would have not even considered this.  Are you afraid of heights?

JerryC wrote

I think you are all missing one huge factor in the decision to run the Gondi rather than the lifts.... liability.

It's far more difficult to fall out of the Gondi.... and far easier to load and unload it.... making for less injuries... less lawsuits.. lower insurance rates... etc.

Just a thought.

It’s a good thought IMO. It is possible to down load on the Facelift and it is done sometimes with skiers who feel they have gotten themselves on terrain above their ability level. However, it isn't the easiest download. The skier has to carry their gear up the off ramp, to their right, as other skiers are coming down the ramp. Once they've done that they have to get across the deck, in front of incoming chairs, to the other side to board the chair to download. This is done with the full attention of the liftee and usually a patroller over seeing the operation.

What makes the Facelift a possible download is the fact that it is detachable and comes in and goes out slowly. That said, someone not use to the download process could find the whole deal intimidating, especially going in front of an incoming chair, across a slippery deck, carrying their equipment.

Doing it occasionally to help a frightened green skier down, under close supervision, is not the same as having a line of skiers coming up and across as others are coming in. On the gondi it is just as easy to download as it is to upload so it is a lot safer for customers.

If we are talking down loading it's a whole different animal.  Pretty weird feeling to ride a HSQ down with no weight on your boots.

Coach Z wrote

If we are talking down loading it's a whole different animal.  Pretty weird feeling to ride a HSQ down with no weight on your boots.

Did that one May at Blackcomb when they just had the top.

Is it legal to ski at Whiteface and Gore after they shut the lifts down?

I would think so because it is state owned land, but I've never seen pictures from these mountians, and I have many others in NE.

At any rate, if you want to keep skiing - get some AT bindings and some skins and don't let the Gondi hold you back!

MikeK wrote

At any rate, if you want to keep skiing - get some AT bindings and some skins and don't let the Gondi hold you back!

Or just go to Kmart for lift served.