Idea To Keep Whiteface Open Later in the Spring

I just had an amazing day of spring skiing at WF today.  This got me thinking "How could this be made to last longer".  This is what I have come up with.

Build a snow glacier on the Skyward to Victoria route that is many feet thick.  This is a good trail to glacier because it isn't near any lift that would limit depth due to the lift being too close to the ground.  Build something similar to Killington's Umbrella Bar at either the summit, or the base of the Summit Quad so that there would be food, drink, and bathrooms up there.  This is so that no one would need to go the the bottom, except at the end of the day.  Once spring comes around, cut operations as the snow melts away.  When the bottom runouts rot out, do downloading on the Facelift with skiing on the Summit Quad.  The LWF chair could also spin if there was enough snow.  Eventually end with the Skyward glacier served by the Summit Quad using Facelift to download to the base and parking lots.

This would allow Whiteface to be competitive in the late season market and would keep us all skiing longer in NY.

They should just watch this video... coverage is overrated anyway.

http://www.freeride.se/video/49095/

I dunno… coverage might be overrated if I was on someone else's skis….

Here's some vid to keep you stoked until next winter.

I'm buying xc skis.

I like the idea but it probably does not make financial sense

Probably doesn't make financial sense to kill the Gondi in favor of the LWF chair but that doesn't stop us from wanting it.

It costs way more to run the Gondi in electric so it becomes a question of how many foot passenger tickets need to be sold to cover the difference.  I don't claim to know the answer but it has to be quite a few

Doing about 100 a day.  What do foot passengers pay for the ride?

best place to build a glacier would be the dark side aka Essex, Northway, Mackenzie.  Sky gets a lot of eastern sun.  but love the enthusiasm.  it's time to transition to mtn biking where every day is a powder day!

 

I believe it is something like 20 per ride with kids 6 and under for free.

Time to rip on the quads and get ready for boat season !

For those who don't boat, Lake George has plenty of very,very nice looking scenery. It's amazing what you see there. The lake is nice, too.

snoloco wrote

I believe it is something like 20 per ride with kids 6 and under for free.

So if that's 2000 a day.. can you run the Gondi on that?  Laz told me it was 500 a day to run his chairs, each. So maybe 2000 is a reasonable number.  

You're also bringing people to the Olympic Region (in quasi mud season) so maybe that is part of the thinking.

Harvey wrote

snoloco wrote

I believe it is something like 20 per ride with kids 6 and under for free.

So if that's 2000 a day.. can you run the Gondi on that?  Laz told me it was 500 a day to run his chairs, each. So maybe 2000 is a reasonable number.  

You're also bring people to the Olympic Region (in quasi mud season) so maybe that is part of the thinking.

The gondola runs on two 600hp motors in tandem.  Plattekill's lifts are probably around 300hp, so that is probably about accurate.  It is rated for a max speed of 1,212 fpm, but it wasn't running that fast this weekend.  It didn't since with foot passengers, they want to give them a scenic ride, not whisk them up in 7 minutes.  It only needs to run full speed when there are crowds to keep lines down.  So with not running at design speed, it was probably a little less then 2,000 to run it all day.  LWF probably is similar to Platty's lifts, so they would need to get at least 1,500 from foot passengers to make it worth killing the LWF in favor of the gondola.

I don't think they are just running the gondola for foot passengers..its just one of the components in the decision.  there is also a product called the Olympic Sites passport which includes a visit to all venues for $32.  the largest selling factor being the gondola. its really a pointless discussion though..they are going to run the gondola.  

Best way to get them to blow a glacier and stay opened long into the season is to charge more for spring lift tickets and get people to show up.

Or am I stating the obvious...

Gondolas are an attraction for sure. Especially one in the High Peaks.

PeeTex makes me laugh and he has a good point.  We are all crazy.

Say you're an owner like Laszlo or the Slutzys.

The question posed to you on April 1st is ... do you want to close now and make X or stay open two more weeks and take home X - Y?

ORDA isn't exactly an owner so maybe it's not the same.

Snowballs wrote

Time to rip on the quads and get ready for boat season !

For those who don't boat, Lake George has plenty of very,very nice looking scenery. It's amazing what you see there. The lake is nice, too.

Pix or it didn't happen!    

I sell engineered high end motors for a living.  This is something I know a heck of a lot about.

From an engineering perspective the Gondi is much longer and the cars alone weight at maybe ten times empty what a double chair on LWF weights.  The load that the Gondi motors must delivery is swag of say 15 times more.  The Gondi is a newer technology so it's maybe a somewhat more efficient.  Still it's going to cost 5 to 10 ten times more in wattage to run.  Wattage is not free.  I doubt if anyone really did a  real break even analysis that the tourist rides as a sole excuse to run the Gondi over chairs is ever going to make business sense.  That said Orda is not a typical business.

The gondola is more efficient because it is newer and because it is a top drive unlike LWF.  The top drive configuration is much more efficient because the weight of the line pulls it tight against the drive bullwheel.  For that reason, a top drive lift like the gondola can be run at a much lower tension than a bottom drive lift such as LWF or Facelift.  Running at a lower tension reduces friction and other issues associated with a super tight line.  A bottom drive lift needs to pull down on the downgoing side and pull the cable around the top bullwheel before it can move the heavier upgoing side.  A top drive pulls up directly on the upgoing side.

Most lifts are installed as top drives since it is more efficient, but when the cost of running electric to the top is prohibitive, the lift is installed as a bottom drive.  In ORDA's case, their lifts are mostly bottom drive because they don't have much money.  There are only 5 top drive lifts operated by ORDA.  They are the Whiteface Gondola, Gore Gondola, and the North, Straightbrook, and Topridge lifts also at Gore.  The rest are bottom drive.

Totally agree Gondi is more efficient.  Let's says it's 35% better which is a huge difference.  The length of the Gondi is around 35% longer netting out the difference.  It's the load of the Gondi cars weight make the Gondi much more expensive to run.  It's simple physics from that point with every lbs in weight costing more energy to move.

While I don't claim to fully understand the attach and detach mechanisms they by nature must also consume considerable energy that is very inefficient as high gear ratios are inherently inefficient .

whitefaces Gondi is particularly inefficient as it has the rise and fall middle section increasing the friction on the cable and making it more even more costly to run again than a more normal straight line lift

I'd like to ski with you some time.  You write well and understand technical concepts very well.  Are you planning to study engineering? We could have some interesting chair rides discussions.